$22's Two AK hands & One AQ hand

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

Would anyone play these hands differently?

My comments in white <font color="white">
I am thinking that I should have pushed both AK hands pf, and not c-bet the AQ hand on the flop. What are your thoughts?</font>

AK Hand #1
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: mandy20 (1200)
Seat 3: EAllen20 (875)
Seat 4: Dr_Jeckyl_00 (770)
Seat 7: hartzfarmer (895)
Seat 8: losyara007 (1555)
Seat 9: drmacko (1220)
Seat 10: pokrdevl (1485)
pokrdevl posts small blind (15)
mandy20 posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dr_Jeckyl_00 [ Kd, Ah ]
EAllen20 folds.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 raises (120) to 120
hartzfarmer calls (120)
losyara007 folds.
drmacko folds.
pokrdevl folds.
mandy20 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2s, Jh, 2h ]
Dr_Jeckyl_00 bets (120)
hartzfarmer calls (120)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3d ]
Dr_Jeckyl_00 checks.
hartzfarmer bets (655)
hartzfarmer is all-In.
HERO?
Results in white <font color="white">
Dr_Jeckyl_00 folds.</font>

AK Hand #2
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: mandy20 (1170)
Seat 3: EAllen20 (875)
Seat 4: Dr_Jeckyl_00 (530)
Seat 7: hartzfarmer (1180)
Seat 8: losyara007 (1555)
Seat 9: drmacko (1220)
Seat 10: pokrdevl (1470)
mandy20 posts small blind (25)
EAllen20 posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dr_Jeckyl_00 [ Kh, Ah ]
Dr_Jeckyl_00 raises (150) to 150
hartzfarmer folds.
losyara007 folds.
drmacko calls (150)
pokrdevl folds.
mandy20 folds.
EAllen20 raises (825) to 875
EAllen20 is all-In.
HERO?
Results in White <font color="white">
Dr_Jeckyl_00 calls (380)
Dr_Jeckyl_00 is all-In.
drmacko folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1235 with Dr_Jeckyl_00
Creating Side Pot 1 with $345 with EAllen20
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5d, Th, 4h ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4c ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 3d ]

EAllen20 balance 1580, bet 875, collected 1580, net +705 [ Qs Qc ] [ two pairs, queens and fours -- Qs,Qc,Th,4h,4c ]
Dr_Jeckyl_00 balance 0, lost 530 [ Kh Ah ] [ a pair of fours -- Ah,Kh,Th,4h,4c ]</font>

AQ Hand

Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 4: richyriver ( $3395 )
Seat 5: navyeng39 ( $375 )
Seat 1: mywinstreak ( $665 )
Seat 6: dj_sidekick ( $1400 )
Seat 3: kenwinz ( $565 )
Seat 2: Dr_Jeckyl_00 ( $660 )
Seat 8: driz77 ( $940 )
Trny:15568414 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dr_Jeckyl_00 [ Ah Qc ]
Dr_Jeckyl_00 raises [150].
kenwinz folds.
richyriver folds.
navyeng39 folds.
dj_sidekick calls [150].
driz77 calls [125].
mywinstreak folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 5h, Td ]
driz77 checks.
HERO?
Results in White <font color="white">
Dr_Jeckyl_00 is all-In [510]
dj_sidekick folds.
driz77 calls [510].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
driz77 shows [ 8c, 8h ] a pair of eights.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 shows [ Ah, Qc ] a pair of queens.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 wins 1520 chips from the main pot with a pair of queens. </font>

[jeffraider]

Hand 1

I like your play. 120 is maybe a bit too much though for the preflop raise, especially from second position. I'd raise 90-100 I think, or even limp from this position at the table. You can play AK a lot of ways preflop though depending on your approach to postflop. With your postflop line, which I'd do myself, I think makes more sense with a smaller preflop raise/limp. I think 4BBs is investing a little more than you need to in a pot with AKo out of position. Good fold though, no way you can find a call.

Hand 2

Of course you call. Your preflop raise was perfect to move in on you, but the reraiser actually looked really strong after one cold call of your raise. I decided that he probably had QQ-99, but with the overlay here and only 380 behind in a pot that will be 1280 if he calls you don't hate seeing QQ here.

Hand 3

I like the preflop raise, unfortunately you got the worst possible result with two callers. I hate the flop push mostly because it looks like just what it is, a couple of high cards trying to win the pot with no pair. This means you get called by even bottom pair, as there is no legitimate hand that beats a pair that you might play this way except AT and maybe MAYBE 88-66 but I'd be surprised them here that often. You also don't have enough chips to fold a worse hand here against these two opponents.

[Pete H]

#1

I raise little less preflop (85-90).
On the flop I make a continuation bet, usually between 1/2 and 3/4 pot and then check/fold if called and no A/K hits.

#2

You have only 10½ BB's so I'd open push that. After your raise you can't fold to a push.

#3

Usually play that just like you did.

[45suited]

1) raise to t90 pre-flop, bet the flop, slow down on turn.

alternative line (which everyone hates): if there are aggressive players to act after you, limp re-raise all-in preflop. i like playing ak oop this way in the early levels. this is my reasoning why: good FE, at worst a coinflip, sometimes called by hands you dominate, plus you see all 5 cards if called. if i can expect some donk to raise if i call, i will do this quite a bit. don't care what anyone says, you pick up good chips when they fold to your push, you double up quite often, sometimes you bust. what does not happen is this: raise pre-flop, cbet flop, check/fold turn, now you're crippled. blah.

2) push pre-flop

3) push pre-flop (screw the 10 BB rule here and the horse it rode in on. i don't think that it applies here. you don't have enough chips to be messing around. i absolutely hate raising a couple big cards oop with a medium/short stack, then having to cripple myself just to cbet oop. just push and see what happens. you can't be afraid to bust here.)

[jeffraider]

I'm surprised you two push on hands 2 and 3! I think you guys are costing yourself money by doing that, really. You're folding hands you want to double up on like AQ-A9, KQ etc and you're still playing for your whole stack against hands that coinflip or crush you. About the only good result of pushing would be folding a hand like 55, which may fold to a normal raise anyways. This is a spot to double up against a weaker hand, not put your entire stack at risk for 75 chips!

When you raise to 150 UTG/MP with AK/AQ/JJ-99 you're inviting action from AQ-A9 and 88-22 that you're happy to have that you discourage with a push.

[45suited]

A few things to consider regarding hands 2 and 3:

1) As a short stack, there is some real value to picking up even 75 chips.

2) You can fold out some low to mid PPs.

3) You still often get called by worse aces.

4) You take away your positional disadvantage.

5) You're screwed if you run into a monster hand anyway.

6) If you make a standard raise, get called by a mid PP, the times that you do hit, you're often not going to double up, especially after hitting your ace. Basically by making a standard raise, you're risking getting totally crippled, playing a hand OOP, and even if you hit, you've given the mid PPs an escape hatch so you can't even double up.

All in all, I think pushing even in hand 3 is the correct play.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
A few things to consider regarding hands 2 and 3:

1) As a short stack, there is some real value to picking up even 75 chips.

2) You can fold out some low to mid PPs.

3) You still often get called by worse aces.

4) You take away your positional disadvantage.

5) You're screwed if you run into a monster hand anyway.

6) If you make a standard raise, get called by a mid PP, the times that you do hit, you're often not going to double up, especially after hitting your ace. Basically by making a standard raise, you're risking getting totally crippled, playing a hand OOP, and even if you hit, you've given the mid PPs an escape hatch so you can't even double up.

All in all, I think pushing even in hand 3 is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make some good points but I think that you're scaring off the hands that you should be begging for play from, and honestly, I'm not terrified playing AK out of position after I've raised preflop, and I can still work with the stack I've got left if I have to check-fold a flop. The 75 chips can't be worth enough to our short stack to make pushing out weaker aces here worth it.

Let's look at the two hand groups that we're most likely to be folding here:

1) Mid to low PPs. Being that we're actually an underdog to these PPs I don't mind picking up the pot on the flop if an A or K flops (or Q or J too, with a c-bet) without doubling up. I think losing the 45% underdog spot whenever we would have double up if we pushed is fine, really.

2) Weaker Aces. I think this is the important thing here. We must do everything possible to play with these hands as we are large 75% favourites over them. This is a great spot to get doubled and I think that maximizing our chances to do it here is the priority.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's look at the two hand groups that we're most likely to be folding here:

1) Mid to low PPs. Being that we're actually an underdog to these PPs I don't mind picking up the pot on the flop if an A or K flops (or Q or J too, with a c-bet) without doubling up. I think losing the 45% underdog spot whenever we would have double up if we pushed is fine, really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get your reasoning. I say that we are a dog to low to mid PPs, so I would like to do everything I can to fold them out PF. You say that you don't mind if they fold after you hit your ace. The risk / reward of the way you are saying to play the hand seems way off. When I hit my hand, I want to double up! You are way underestimating the benefit of getting these hands to fold pre-flop IMO. Also, you hit your hand 1/3 of the time. If you can't even double up when you hit, why risk 25% of your stack to raise PF?


[ QUOTE ]
2) Weaker Aces. I think this is the important thing here. We must do everything possible to play with these hands as we are large 75% favourites over them. This is a great spot to get doubled and I think that maximizing our chances to do it here is the priority.

[/ QUOTE ]

So... if you miss the flop and you're playing against a weaker ace, how are you planning to double up? Are you going to push with air when you miss? Or C-bet, which would bring your stack somewhere in the neighborhood of t300? You don't have the stack to play this hand with any finesse. I think that you're severely underestimating the disadvantage of playing this hand OOP. Whatever your plan is to double up vs weaker aces will backfire completely when you are up against a PP. Say you will push any flop. You will get often get stacked by the PP by doing this when you miss, but when you hit, he gets away cheaply.

What is your plan for the 2/3 of the time when you miss and you are first to act?

I think that by playing the hand the way you are advocating, you think that you're being prudent or safe, but really, you're just making the hand more complicated than it needs to be. You think that you're being prudent, but you are asking hands that are favored over you to call pre-flop. You are also giving those same hands a way out so that you don't even double up when you hit your hand. The 10 BB rule is not written in stone - I think that the OP is just short enough here to push PF.

[Pete H]

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, I think pushing even in hand 3 is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

So far I've had nice results with standard raise and pushing most of the flops.

I'm pretty sure both lines are +EV and so close both are correct plays.

All in all, very interesting point I haven't thought that much before.

Do you disagree with me that both plays are +EV and/or do you think that pushing is much more profitable?

Edit:

Just read 45's latest post.

I'm still a novice, but so far what I've seen in 11-33 levels I think that small to mid PP's will call your pushes more likely preflop than on the flop with overs.

Just like I (and many more) think Stop 'n' Go has more FE than pushing preflop.

The key here is that you are OOP and usually first to act on the flop.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you disagree with me that both plays are +EV and/or do you think that pushing is much more profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will be honest and say that I really do not know, since I rarely take the standard raise followed by pushing with air line.

The ironic thing is that, even though pushing PF appears to take courage, I think that it's actually the safer play because it maximizes your FE. Anytime that I can fold out some PPs and pick up the blinds here, I'm actually quite happy.

For the people who advocate a standard raise, this is what I do not get. Are they advocating c-betting or pushing any flop? Or would they actually check-fold a flop?

Here is why I ask this:

1) If you c-bet or push any flop, you may as well push pre-flop IMO.

2) If you say that you could actually check / fold a flop based upon its texture, then you will be down to t435 after taking the blinds the next two hands. YUCK.

All in all, I don't see any reason to not just push PF.

[45suited]

So... you guys really want to raise for 1/4 of your stack, have bigstack call you with TJs or 33 or whatever, just so you can then play the hand OOP? Then push any flop?

Once again, you allow guys to call you with position, then call your push when they are ahead, fold when they're behind. Doesn't sound too good to me.

[Pete H]

[ QUOTE ]

The ironic thing is that, even though pushing PF appears to take courage, I think that it's actually the safer play because it maximizes your FE. Anytime that I can fold out some PPs and pick up the blinds here, I'm actually quite happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So this is where we disagree. I've only played ~1000 SNG's, but I think at the lower levels (that I play) you have more FE against PPs after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

For the people who advocate a standard raise, this is what I do not get. Are they advocating c-betting or pushing any flop? Or would they actually check-fold a flop?

Here is why I ask this:

1) If you c-bet or push any flop, you may as well push pre-flop IMO.

2) If you say that you could actually check / fold a flop based upon its texture, then you will be down to t435 after taking the blinds the next two hands. YUCK.

All in all, I don't see any reason to not just push PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to check-fold anything. I'm pushing flops that I don't hit and checking/betting the flops I hit.

[Pete H]

[ QUOTE ]
So... you guys really want to raise for 1/4 of your stack, have bigstack call you with TJs or 33 or whatever, just so you can then play the hand OOP? Then push any flop?

Once again, you allow guys to call you with position, then call your push when they are ahead, fold when they're behind. Doesn't sound too good to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I think 33 is more likely to fold his best hand when you push J96 flop than preflop.

Of course I'll lose my stack if the caller hits his hand, but if they call with small PP's without implied odds then there's a good chance they'd call your preflop push too.

And most of the time they don't hit and I win more than just the blinds in case they would've folded to preflop push.

[jeffraider]

45s, it's not that I want to play the hand out of position for a quarter of my stack all the time or anything, but this move gets hands that would fold to a push to come over the top most of the time. For example, someone would fold ATo if I push but if I standard-raise then they feel they can come over the top. I do this all the time and catch people with weaker hands all the time. I'm just saying that the worst case scenario here is that we get a couple of callers and half to check-fold the flop. Otherwise we have more FE against PPs and win the small pots against the weaker aces if they just call. So the downside isn't that bad, and the upside, trapping a weaker hand into moving in on you preflop that would have folded to a push is huge! Sure with pushing preflop you win more small pots and don't have to make icky postflop decisions, but I think that the upside is worth the extra trouble.