1st hand of $109 - what the hell do you do?

[RevAgain]

Party $109:

Very first hand I am dealt KhQs in the CO and after several calls I call too, 7 see the flop including the button and both blinds.

* Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, Qh, 5h ]

It's checked to me and I bet out 125, basically the pot, and get called by the only person to act after me, the button. Everyone else folds.

Turn is Tc and I bet 225, button shoves for 860 total, first hand so obviously his stack is same as mine and I'm bust if I call and lose.

I am simply stumped here, I have top pair but against a huge starting field, although I have a redraw to the second nut flush, with only one card to come. If I'm losing to the made flush my chances of redrawing to my king are much reduced as two hearts are gone already.

I can see arguments for changing my play on preflop and flop, and was very unsure what to do on the turn.

Thoughts?

[raptor517]

fold preflop so you dont get in a spot like this. you also need to check the turn, and maybe take a free turn instead of betting the flop. play ANY hand cautiously with 7 people. now u get stacked by 4h7h when u dont catch. holla

[billyjex]

preflop: folding this is very weak and evident of someone who is weak postflop. limp=good.

flop: i like your pot bet. thin the field.

turn: you might as well keep the lead. you have a strong hand and a great draw. and yeah.. you gotta call his push. other than the fact you might have the best hand, you have a redraw to bail you out.

[adanthar]

I'm limping PF, but with 7 in, I am putting as few chips in that pot with this hand as possible, because you get CR'd so very, very often.

So I check the flop, check the turn having potted the flop, and probably shrug and fold to the raise if I did bet it for some reason. After the call, all signs point to you having ~7 outs.

edit: although I'm kinda open to calling the raise since you're getting 3:1...very close though. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: folding this is very weak and evident of someone who is weak postflop. limp=good.

[/ QUOTE ]

catching a flop like the one just shown is reason enough why MOST players should not in fact limp. if yer gonna do anything with it pop it to 85ish or dump it preflop. holla

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop: folding this is very weak and evident of someone who is weak postflop. limp=good.

[/ QUOTE ]

catching a flop like the one just shown is reason enough why MOST players should not in fact limp. if yer gonna do anything with it pop it to 85ish or dump it preflop. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

what is so bad with the flop he caught? he has TPGK and the 2nd nut flush draw. sure, the flush draw is pretty obvious, but I am willing to go deep with this hand.

with 7 players, it is a little scary, and I think checking the flop is ok, or check/calling the turn is ok too. but I'm not really looking to get away from this hand..

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop: folding this is very weak and evident of someone who is weak postflop. limp=good.

[/ QUOTE ]

catching a flop like the one just shown is reason enough why MOST players should not in fact limp. if yer gonna do anything with it pop it to 85ish or dump it preflop. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

what is so bad with the flop he caught? he has TPGK and the 2nd nut flush draw. sure, the flush draw is pretty obvious, but I am willing to go deep with this hand.

with 7 players, it is a little scary, and I think checking the flop is ok, or check/calling the turn is ok too. but I'm not really looking to get away from this hand..

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, are you honestly thinking you are ahead here on the turn? you cant possibly be a winning player. holla

[citanul]

raptor and adanthar have absolutely nailed this thread.

particularly the message that people should get from this thread, especially the op is:

the reasons that this hand is hard to play are very evident. they are also self induced. if you are uncomfortable playing this hand in the way it turned out, play it a different way, such as the ways suggested by raptor and adanthar. amongst the many aspects of this hand worth noting is to control the pot size and keep it small in a situation where you're going to have no idea where you stand, ever. why commit a lot of chips to the hand when you are infrequently going to be dealing with a large pot you will win without catching slim outs?

meh, i meant not to repeat what was already said and instead just stop with saying that they have it perfect, but i started to stray there and go over the analysis myself.

citanul

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop: folding this is very weak and evident of someone who is weak postflop. limp=good.

[/ QUOTE ]

catching a flop like the one just shown is reason enough why MOST players should not in fact limp. if yer gonna do anything with it pop it to 85ish or dump it preflop. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

what is so bad with the flop he caught? he has TPGK and the 2nd nut flush draw. sure, the flush draw is pretty obvious, but I am willing to go deep with this hand.

with 7 players, it is a little scary, and I think checking the flop is ok, or check/calling the turn is ok too. but I'm not really looking to get away from this hand..

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, are you honestly thinking you are ahead here on the turn? you cant possibly be a winning player. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm glad I can make your games good.

holla back youngin

I'm not a big fan of the flop bet. You don't need to bet that much to make it incorrect for flush draws to call, and the only flush draw you need to push out is the Ah. By betting more than you need to, you're committing a lot of chips with just TPGK on a monotone board.

[RevAgain]

I agree, I think the best move here is folding preflop or calling and dropping the hand unless you make two pair or better. It's just too hard to know where you're at the first hand of a tournament when (don't use PT for tournaments) you have no idea of what sort of players you are up against.

As it happened, I called and immediately regretted it. I think most of the time it's a bad call but this time I got lucky and my opponent had just Q9 with the nine of hearts, so has just 3 outs against me. I doubled up and went on to win, that's 1st place in my last three tournaments for me, all $109s /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Maybe I should sign up at that poker room (Absolute?) which gives you a million quid if you come 1st in 7 $10s on the trot!

Gloating aside, I have to agree with those who said the call was (would be) a bad one and getting into a big pot like this with a hand which could be a mile behind was a mistake. Once I'm there though I'm still not 100% it was a bad call all-in. I guess it's marginal but if you are behind you're out, if you fold you can still take 1st place and are not crippled, and that is what it should come down to.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a big fan of the flop bet. You don't need to bet that much to make it incorrect for flush draws to call, and the only flush draw you need to push out is the Ah. By betting more than you need to, you're committing a lot of chips with just TPGK on a monotone board.

[/ QUOTE ]

blech. we're talking about a situation where the stacks are still mildly deepish. unless you get away incredibly cheaply every time they hit the flush, and only only fold when they do in fact hit hte flush, never when they bluff at the flush card, immediate odds take a back seat to implied odds here, and someoen folding for a smalllish bet with a flush draw would be an idiot. further, i don't know why you say with 7 limpers you only have to fear the Ah? aren't you going to see 73h (assuming those carsd aren't on the flop, you get my point) quite often?

citanul

[Ogre]

i limp pf and pretty much go into check fold mode when he calls