A hand so fair, a flop most foul

[private joker]

Commerce 6/12 game, soft as a baby's bottom. Loose-passive doesn't even begin to describe the fishiness. Weak sauce abounds.

Preflop: 4 limpers to me on the button, and I raise with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB folds, BB calls, 4 limpers call.

6 to the flop for 12.3sb Flop comes 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. A loose, chase-happy BB checks, a straight-forward, non-thinking weak UTG bets, a slightly aggressive but donkish UTG+1 (who will play any 2 suited and is probably the worst post-flop player at the table) raises. MP1 folds, short-stacked Asian lady who just sat down cold-calls in the CO.

I make it 3 bets (?). BB calls 3 cold. UTG, UTG+1, and CO all call.

Turn comes 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif. All check to CO who goes all-in for her last 4 chips (3/6 structure, so that's 2/3 of a bet). I can fold, call the 4 chips, or raise to 10 chips. What's my line?

And does anyone play the flop differently?

[toss]

I'd probably call the flop and raise a favorable turn. On the turn I'm calling and mucking to a checkraise from UTG. I don't think raising the turn is good because of the highly coordinated board.

[droolie]

I raise. I want a secondary pot built up and I doubt any of these wonks have the 5. The lady probably does have the 5 and we are drawing dead to her but she's all-in so she can't win any more of our money. This is about the rest of the hand. We can still make money off the other wanks if they are drawing. If we are ahead we can make guys holdings 9's or T's and flush draws pay us for their draws as they certainly won't fold and it's doubtful they'll C/R here. Our equity should be high enough for this if we are ahead. If everybody folds to the raise I'd be absolutety shocked.

If we get check-raised by the weak UTG or if it comes back capped I think I can let this one go.

We also have to be cautious if any scare card like a club 9 or T hits on the river.

[Nick C]

I would just cold-call on the flop, I think.

On the turn -- ugh. I think I like a raise, for the reasons Droolie gave. (I'm still optimistically hoping CO doesn't have a 5, though.)

[Colonel Kataffy]

[ QUOTE ]
The lady probably does have the 5 and we are drawing dead to her but she's all-in so she can't win any more of our money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a reason for thinking that she is more likely than any of the others to have a 5 or is this just wishful thinking?

[PokerSparky]

Tough hand. I think waiting to the turn to raise here is the right line considering your equity is going to change a lot with the turn card. The 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif wasn't a great card, but I think I still raise the turn to build a side pot, and possibly take a free showdown on the river if something like the J /images/graemlins/club.gif comes on the river.

[Evan]

Raise. Protection and side pot.

EDIT: Btw, my standard line is to 3 bet the flop. Partly because I like to 3 bet lots of hands here so I need to be 3 betting overpairs as well, partly because the turn gets checked to me a surprising amount of the time and partly because underplaying hands like this on the flop can cause you to find really horrible folds later on.

[rmarotti]

This is probably the best title to a hand post ever.

[onegymrat]

Hi Joker,

With the table you described, there are only two ways to play this hand postflop, either play super passively and call it down, or keep jamming the turn(sidepot) and river.

If they are the epitome of loose-passive, they will be oblivious to where they stand with two pair and just call you down, or if they have a straight, they'll fear a bigger one and only call you down also. Either way, if you are beat, they won't make too much of a commotion, but if you are ahead for some odd reason, you're going to need a couple of racks to scoop up all those filthy green chips.

So, the question is, how lucky do you feel? As for me, it would be completely dependent on how the table views me. Although there's an 80% chance I'm jamming this pot.

[davet]

6 to a pot with no folders, I would have to slow down on the flop, and I woldn't neccesarily feel bad about folding this on the turn.

I am thinking of all the hands that could beat you here. 5x four ways, 9T four ways, 67 three ways 78 three ways, 64 tree ways, 66, 77, 88, 44. It seems that the calling standards in this table are loose enough that you are almost playing against completely random hands. When it is so many people to the flop, it becomes increasingly unlikely that top pair is going to hold up.

The problem with the players you are playing agianst is that they are going to let you do all the betting, and the only way I don't get smashed during a bad run of cards is to play something akin to "fit or pass."

My concern is the flop donk- bet and raise, what did you think that meant? I have a feeling that they are of the "fit or fold" style and they sure wouldn't be betting if they missed. You already pointed out that this is a very passive game, what would make them become aggressive?

I know it's hard, but I would have to drop the aces on the flop.

[private joker]

I'm not folding aces on the flop. The donk bet means someone has a pair. The raise means "I have a flush draw and I heard some people raise draws." All the callers are saying "this is a big pot and I'll see you at the river, maybe my QJ will hit a pair."

I 3-bet the flop because I was pretty sure I still had the best hand or close to it. They all checked the turn, and the short stack puts her final $8 in.

I decided to raise and put no more money in the pot. BB called, the others folded. River brought a 9, and it checked through. BB had J5 for the turned straight, and all-in had T3 for the rivered better straight.