So is this strange? Should I have a reaction?

[Mat Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
it seems that the moderators do some really strange things on 2+2, but trying to steal their members for another site takes the cake. I received the following as a pm today:

Many of the long time 2+2'ers (and other forum members as well) miss the the smaller community and higher content of the days of old. So many of us have banded together to create a low noise forum to compliment (not replace) 2+2. Zeno, bruiser, Alobar, Evan, SpicyF, sam h, LawrenceNG, Kerssens, HDPM, Rick Nebiolo, Astroglide and many others are there.

It's non profit, it's new and still in the setup phase but the members list is growing fast. It's main goal is quality discussion so it will be invite only soon enough. We will also strive hard to have low noise politics, more mature atmosphere, and low noise poker forums catered for the needs of the posters.

Stop by and say hi.

-wacki


www.topnotchtalk.com (http://www.topnotchtalk.com)



[/ QUOTE ]

[MMMMMM]

I doubt you need to be concerned, and I think that's a natural development to the increased noise on 2+2.

I'll be checking out the new forum soon, even though I soon probably won't have a great deal of time for posting on either site.

I can see merit in the idea of an invite-only forum. 2+2 is a valuable resource indeed, but the noise level has gotten very high. Maybe that just comes with growth and the territory and there's nothing much that can be done about it.

The idea of a fee-based forum on 2+2 has been floated before, but I don't think that would solve the problem (nor do I guess it would mesh well with 2+2's business/sales model); nor likely would an invite-only forum on 2+2 mesh well with 2+2 as a whole, I would think.

Just my take at the outset. I don't see much need for concern about the other forum, though I do see some cause for concern about the increased noise here. Of course, maybe increased noise is a good indicator of growth, which is good for 2+2; so maybe from a business perspective the increased noise isn't much to worry about. I doubt the forums will ever deteriorate to the point that ALL the good posters go elsewhere, and I doubt that posters going elsewhere means that they won't post here also.

Maybe too my perspective is a bit slanted regarding the noise, as it is more of a problem on the casual forums on 2+2 than on the poker forums (though even there it has increased somewhat as well).

[Lloyd]

I can say that I'm personally getting less out of the MTT forum now then I was a year ago. Part of that is my growth as a player, and part the fact that so many new people are posting that duplication has become the norm.

There have been suggestions like creating an invite only forum and splitting the forum by the size of the buy-in. Clearly, the more experienced posters are coming by less and less. Since there is an abundance of information for newer players, what we are doing is focusing on creating/guiding content for the experienced player. We solicited suggestions and have a game plan that is going into effect right now. Some of those posters who haven't been coming around as much were quick to respond very positively and said that this would bring them back.

So yes, I think we should all be concerned if what we are looking for is continued growth in the discussions. But hopefully there are things we can do to entice people to stay and continue to contribute.

[Mat Sklansky]

A forum separate from 2+2 is not my business. The email I received was from a person who felt that moderators on 2+2 shouldn't be sending out pms soliciting our forum members to join a different forum.

This is what I'm questioning.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
A forum separate from 2+2 is not my business. The email I received was from a person who felt that moderators on 2+2 shouldn't be sending out pms soliciting our forum members to join a different forum.

This is what I'm questioning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Regarding your question, here are my thoughts:

As far as I know, all Moderators are Posters too, and they don't lose their privileges as a Poster or Member upon becoming Moderators. I am also not aware of Moderator being a paid position. Therefore I don't see much wrong with a Poster who is also a Moderator inviting others to check out another forum, though doing so may perhaps carry a slight aura of impropriety.

Moderators have an unspoken responsibility to act civilly and responsibly and so forth, and I don't think such an invite violates those precepts. Nor would I guess it at all likely to substantially damage 2+2.

So all in all, my take is that it "feels" a little odd and questionable, but I don't think it's really wrong or harmful. Anyway, invite or no, posters who are looking for less cluttered forums in which to spend some of their time are probably going to find them sooner or later regardless.

[BottlesOf]

I understand why you thought this was something worth discussing, but I really don't see this as any kind of conflict of interest or inappropriate act. From what I understand this other site is not a competing publisher but more of an informal, smaller, high-quality newsgroup-like community to discuss poker stuff (kind of like 2+2.com was say 2 years ago). As it's not meant to be a replacement for this site but rather a compliment to it, I think it's really no cause for concern, and I don't think one's status as a moderator makes participation, even solicitation for such a place inappropriate.

Just my $0.02

[durron597]

I don't know, with some of the best strategy posters on the forum leaving it will encourage less traffic as people start to think that the 2+2 forums are not worth their time like they used to be; if such posters leave then that means less traffic here which means less advertising revenue which is something that the Moderators are not supposed to do things to discourage (like having unlocked stickies).

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, with some of the best strategy posters on the forum leaving...

[/ QUOTE ]

Did someone say they're leaving?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, with some of the best strategy posters on the forum leaving...

[/ QUOTE ]

Did someone say they're leaving?

[/ QUOTE ]

When was the last time you saw bruiser, SpicyF or astroglide post poker strategy? And that's just off the top of my head, I would have to look to check on some others...

[imported_Chuck Weinstock]

I privately said more or less the same thing to Mat yesterday.

I think the only time it would be inappropriate would be if the moderator somehow used his "moderatorness" to encourage the recruitment. I'm not talking about any perceived enhanced status as much as I'm talking about his privileges. For instance (extreme and unrealistic) putting up a sticky post on the subject.

Chuck

[Mike Haven]

in effect, this seems to me to be "spamming" (in a loose sense of the word) by pm, something that isn't allowed here

i'm sure quite a bit of spamming by pm goes on that no one ever hears about

however, when it is reported, i think the "spammer" should be warned to cease, at the very least - although i believe that many other mods would ban most spam perps, immediately

personally, i think open thread discussion about such an "extra" forum would be fairer to all parties directly concerned, whereas unsolicited pm invitations, etc, should not be agreed as being acceptable - for the reason of not setting a (woolly) precedent, if nothing else

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, with some of the best strategy posters on the forum leaving...


[/ QUOTE ]


Did someone say they're leaving?

[/ QUOTE ]



When was the last time you saw bruiser, SpicyF or astroglide post poker strategy? And that's just off the top of my head, I would have to look to check on some others...

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't noticed them around as much for quite some time, but my impression is that the new forum has been just starting up in the last week or two. So at a glance that doesn't suggest to me a correlation or causation regarding the posters mentioned spending less time here.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

I haven't noticed them around as much for quite some time, but my impression is that the new forum has been just starting up in the last week or two. So at a glance that doesn't suggest to me a correlation or causation regarding the posters mentioned spending less time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

[wacki]

Hello Mat,

The site it 100% nonprofit. You will never ever see an advertisement on the forum. 2+2 is the greatest site on the planet. We all feel that way. None of us have any intent on leaving and we've tried very hard to make sure that nobody does.

Many of us talk via aim or IRC just to get away from a lot of the noise and random posters. There have been many threads in the past about limiting posting rights and they have been extremely unpopular. 2+2's defense every time was "make your own forum". So, many of us sick of IRC and wanting a bit of privacy have.

We mean no harm and the last thing we want to do is steal from 2+2. It's more of a replacement for IRC or aim than anything else and even that won't completely happen.

Again the site runs at cost and the second an advertisement pops up feel free to delete my 2+2 account. Btw, a former moderator also has thought you might be interested as you would be able to post whatever you want.

Take care,

wacki

[wacki]

the forum got started 4 days ago.

[Lloyd]

Getting back to my original post, I think the bigger issue here is thinking about ways that we can enhance the content of the forums to make it more worthwhile for the more veteran posters to make this their exclusive poker discussion site. After all, what good is it to many of us if the top posters go off and discuss the really insightful stuff on another board even if they come back to 2+2 every now and then to answer some basic question.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

Getting back to my original post, I think the bigger issue here is thinking about ways that we can enhance the content of the forums to make it more worthwhile for the more veteran posters to make this their exclusive poker discussion site.

[/ QUOTE ]

How to do that is a fair question, Lloyd...but I think it's not so much about "enhancing the content"--there's plenty of content here--but rather that it's sometimes hard to get to that content quickly and efficiently because of noise and due to the volume of newer players/posters.

2+2's site is bound to keep drawing in more and more newbies--which is great for 2+2's sales--but it also has the inevitable effect of watering down the percentage of threads and posts with choice content.

The bigger the site gets, the more this may be a problem, unless someone can come up with a really creative solution.

An idea just occurred to me, something along the lines of a color-coded rating system for threads, or else perhaps an "advanced" forum for advanced strategic discussion only. Off the top of my head, I don't see just how either of those ideas would work very well, and I can envision some problems as well. But just maybe, some idea along those lines can be tweaked enough to make it worthwhile. I'm not particularly optimistic that there is really any way to greatly reduce the "watering-down" factor, though. Still, there might be. Something worth thinking about, anyway.