punishment for cashing out?

I would like other players experience on cashing out. Specifically on hands and flops after cashing out. I've been playing for about a year now. Right now I play Pokerstars 2/4 or 3/6. I am finally making money but my experience consistlently goes like this. 1.Log on 2. buy in for $100 3.within minutes am to 150 - 200 4.lose about 20 5. quit for a while (hour or two) 6. repeat. Since I am not working right now and have no source of income besides poker I try to cash out $50 - $100 a day after I have increased my bankroll. Increasing my modest bankroll is priority. Then it seems I get no cards and when I do the flop is way off.
Any of you who have been doing this for awhile please let me in any tips or secrets of the trade. My game is pretty tight, I rarely chase and pretty much stick to SSH preflop selections. I really want to make my living playing poker because I love the game and am sick of boring accounting jobs. Any advice would be appreciated.
GL to all.
Lauren /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[cracker9521]

Do a search for cashout curse and you will see this has been discussed extensively.

[MicroBob]

Hi Lauren -

Talk of the 'cash-out curse' is common...but that doesn't make it correct.

You are experiencing general fluctuation.
There is a lot of variance in this game.

Many so-so players like to try to find various excuses for why they lose.
The fact is, they are losing because they are either playing badly or are going through typical fluctuations (or a combo of the two).
There is no cashout curse and to think so is ridiculous (but, again, many people do incredibly enough).


[ QUOTE ]
no source of income besides poker I try to cash out $50 - $100 a day after I have increased my bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I really want to make my living playing poker because I love the game and am sick of boring accounting jobs. Any advice would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you are depositing and cashing-out virtually everyday and trying to make your living playing poker then it sounds to me that you are WAY underbankrolled to be doing this.

At 2/4 or 3/6 you can perhaps make around 1BB/hr per table (rough estimate) on average if you are a good player AND are sufficiently bankrolled enough to withstand the fluctuations.

So if you can play 4 tables of 3/6 at the same time then making $25/hour is not unrealistic.


For a pro (with no other source of income) this generlaly means having 2 months of expenses + 300BB at the bare-minimum and I personally think this would be too light.
3 months + 500BB would be a better minimum.

But conceiveably if you are already a proven winner (say perhaps you've played 50k hands and have a decent win-rate of 1BB/hr or better) you could get by on a bankroll of $6k ($2k per mth in expenses perhaps + another $2k for playing).

If you are just trying to make it by at 2/4 or 3/6 with less than $1000 then you almost certainly are going to bust at some point (if only from the living expenses).

If you are not yet a proven winner (50k hands AT LEAST of winning poker...and again, this is bare-minimum stuff..I would recommend much more than that) then you just shouldn't be playing full-time for income yet.


Ed Miller has had some good articles about this in the 2+2 magazine (very top left-corner on the green bar) regarding bankroll requirements and other such stuff for wanna-be internet-pro's like yourself.

The fact is, if you are confused or worried about cash-out curses and are just trying to 'lock-up' your wins everyday because you need the money then there is no way you should be doing this full-time for income right now.
Jobs suck...sorry. But you need to get another one for steady income while you continue to work on your game.


Also - as Ed mentioned in SSH...the pre-flop recommendations in his book are perhaps the least important part.
Read and re-study the book for all the great post-flop concepts to help you succeed.


Finally - I don't know why a pro would want to try to make it on the ring-games at pokerstars which just aren't that great.
With a decent rake-back plan at Party you can really help your own cause a LOT.

If you don't know what a rake-back plan is then there is ZERO chance that you should be playing online-poker professionally at this time.

I've been noticing this for a while (i.e. the 'cashout curse'), and I thought, no way, this has to be BS. Well, it's not.

I did an analysis of all my cashouts, EVERY SINGLE TIME I cashout I get crappy cards and second best hands time after time after time. It's unreal. Most times I lose 1/2 my bankroll, sometimes I lose it all and have to re deposit. It's worst when I have a lot of money left.

Lately I've been withdrawing every time I make $50. I keep the minimum in ($100), every time I make $50, out to neteller. It's just a few mouse clicks. Well, I've been doing it for a few weeks now, it's working a treat. My win rate is right where it should be, and I no longer get bad cards. I think somewhere in the software there's a thing that says if you don't have much money left, they don't give you a bad run (maybe they don't want you leaving altogether?? - I don't know).

So anyway, my advice is: Every time you make $50 profit, cash it out. DO IT EVERY TIME. Don't let these bastards screw you around, man. I learnt the hard way.

[SoCalRugger]

[ QUOTE ]
I am finally making money but my experience consistlently goes like this. 1.Log on 2. buy in for $100 3.within minutes am to 150 - 200 4.lose about 20 5. quit for a while (hour or two) 6. repeat.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no way in hell you will be successful at poker if you honestly think it works like this. Is this even a serious post?

[MicroBob]

I don't know if this is a serious post or not....but I obviously addressed it as a serious one.

The people I met on the PPM cruise were uniformally talking about 'unrealistic flops and cards' and 'cash-out curses' ALL the freaking time and were dead serious about it.
Others just don't understand bankroll requirements...and I met enough blackjack and roulette players when I was briefly a dealer who seriously thought a -EV game could be beaten if you just left at the right time....like NEVER playing beyond the point when you are either up $100 or down $50...that way you will supposedly, on average, finish up $50 for all your sessions so the logic goes...and other stuff about leaving when the 'dealer is hot' is generally accepte as correct as well.

The variety of people that I have met in blackjack/roulette dealing and on the PPM cruise leave me in a position where it would not surprise me in the least if all these questions and assumptions were completely legitimate from someone who was just new to poker or gambling and has heard some really bad advice from really bad players.


The good news is...with an open-mind to the possibilities (such as 'the reason you are losing isn't because of the cash-out curse...but because you are just not a good player yet')...virtually anyone can learn why these frightningly commonly accepted ideas are completely wrong.

[Losing all]

I think cashing out $50 a day is a great idea! It will be so awesome when poker sites start charging $15 per withdrawl.

Thanks for your response MicroBob,
Yes, I was serious about my post. I understand about variance and playing badly. This is just my experience after cashing out. I wanted to hear from other players to see if that happened all the time to them as well.
I do play on Eurobet rakeback. (have to fax id to Europe to cashout. wtf)
I am fairly new to playing online and am learning. I am not expecting to make a living on 3/6 tables but am working my way up.
I appreciate the advice, don't appreciate being slammed.
Cheers.

[jmillerdls]

And you are the reason new players get these ideas in their head. Just silly.

Hey Man,
Thanks for your response. It makes more sense than "playing badly" i.e your playing good made $100 in half hour, getting good cards, cash out $50 and it all goes to hell.
When I'm not getting cards or sucked out I quit before tilt or whole bankroll gone so I don't have to re-deposit. Variance Smariance. lol

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
It makes more sense than "playing badly"

[/ QUOTE ]


oh well.
i tried.

[SCfuji]

do you go on unbelievable winning streaks when you deposit? just another way of looking at it. poker is juust ups and downs - if you are cashing out, it is most likely because you just went on a nice win streak and any $ results following a nice win streak will be looked at critically and blame is difficult to point at oneself. we have all been there at one point or another.

[puckboy]

Seriously, Do yourself a favor, get pokertracker to focus on plugging the holes in your game. Then lurk around and read these guys posts for a few months. This forum is a VALUABLE Tool in your poker career. Most of these guys know what they are talking about.

Trust me i was were you are now about a year ago. Also, listen to microbob's advise on bankroll

good luck

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
...I try to cash out $50 - $100 a day after I have increased my bankroll. Increasing my modest bankroll is priority. Then it seems I get no cards and when I do the flop is way off....

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't worry about the "cashout curse" on the major poker sites (PartyPoker, PokerStars, etc.) They don't have to put out dishonest software to make more money. They make an obscene amount of money on rake and tournament fees. If word got out that their software had a built-in "cashout" mode to manipulate the players, they'd lose all of their customers to other online poker sites. It makes no sense for them to do that.

Look at your own game. Maybe you're playing at stakes that are too high for your bankroll? Maybe the cashout causes you to play differently (tighter)?

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
If word got out that their software had a built-in "cashout" mode to manipulate the players, they'd lose all of their customers to other online poker sites. It makes no sense for them to do that.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that there is a cashout curse, or that sites are rigged for some players, a doom switch, if you will. However, if not on forums like this, how could the word ever get out. Several people come here and tell you poker is rigged, cashout curse, blah blah blah. Everyone gets the same answer. Your an idiot, a fucktard, a donk, YSSCKY, etc.... Not surprisingly, they go away. People on this forum are extremely close minded when it comes to these sorts of possibilities. I agree we would all like to see some facts presented with these types of posts. Some data to back of claims of being rigged. But, all theories begin with a hypothesis, usually one based on their own results. The OP said, "it seems there is a cashout curse. I will do research to see if others agree." She comes to the forum and gets flamed away. Certainly research has not been shown that there is indeed a cashout curse. Nor has research been shown to prove that there is not one. Research has not shown that sites deal more second nut hands. But research has not shown that they do not deal more second nut hands.

As stated, I think online sites make a lot of money playing an honest game. However, I believe that the concept of a cashout curse, rigging the game in favor of the bad players, more second nut hands, would make sites even more money. And so, an evil minded company could rig the game to increase profits, at least until a reputable government legalized the operation and exerts some form of regulation. Do you have that much faith in the people that run these operations? Why do people have more faith in the honesty of an online poker room than they do in their own businesses, bosses, president, etc...?

Finally, my main point is this. How will the word get out that a site is dishonest when these people get treated the way they do for reporting their observations?

There was once a time when people were afraid to provide evidence that the world was round because some (perhaps more experienced posters?) thought it absolutely impossible....

[ldavidjm]

For me the "cashout curse" is just because I'll usually withdraw after a nice hot run, and its just the inevitable cooldown I'm due for. When I first started playing at pacific with the free 10 dollars they give you I ran it up to 180 or so playing the 2 dollar tourneys, and then decided I was good enough that I could withdraw all but 6 dollars and rebuild easily from there. Good times (and no somehow I didn't bust completely but I was playing 5c10c with a 60 cent bankroll.....)

[SoCalRugger]

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, my main point is this. How will the word get out that a site is dishonest when these people get treated the way they do for reporting their observations?

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you even read the original post? The OP appears to think she's guaranteed to win every time, and calls it quits after losing $20 (which is one damn hand at 3/6) because obviously at that point the poker site is out to get her. This thread isn't even about observing a cashout curse. It's about playing way underbankrolled, and lacking a fundamental understanding of poker.

I can't wait for the thread when the OP hits a 150BB downswing...

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, my main point is this. How will the word get out that a site is dishonest when these people get treated the way they do for reporting their observations?

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you even read the original post? The OP appears to think she's guaranteed to win every time, and calls it quits after losing $20 (which is one damn hand at 3/6) because obviously at that point the poker site is out to get her. This thread isn't even about observing a cashout curse. It's about playing way underbankrolled, and lacking a fundamental understanding of poker.

I can't wait for the thread when the OP hits a 150BB downswing...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure the OP might be an idiot, but did you read my post? I guess what you are saying is I should have created my own post to pose these question. Just wanted to avoid cluttering the board. Whether it is this OP, or any other that bitches about a "cashout curse," the response is the same. I am just wondering how one "gets the word out."

[meow_meow]

The cash out curse is of course a reality. Poker sites like your money, and they want to give you an incentive to keep it in your account.

However, they have written code into their software to protect those "in the know" from this curse. Let me let you in on this valuable secret:
When you want to cashout, find the prime number closest to the amount you want, then subtract the value of pi (to 2 decimal places), cashout that amount, and voila!

Try it, works every time for me.

I have no theory one way or another but it is importnat to note that online sites are not regulated.

When I play roulette/slots for fun at a B&M, I only do so in AC or Vegas because they have the toughest game agencies in the world. The agencies have the authority to show up and randomly take a machine/wheel and inspect it. Not so in other areas (riverrboats, Indian reservations, etc). So, an online site based in the Philippines or whatever can pretty much do what it wants. Now will it do so? I don't know. But it can.

[PrincipalSkinner]

OF COURSE there is no such thing as a cashout curse--the folks who control your cards just LOVE to have you take out money that they could be drawing interest on . . . (insert Vincent Price laugh here) /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[4_2_it]

It is common knowledge that the online poker sites flip the DOOM switch every time someone cashes out. It is usually only set for 5 days, so I typically wait 5 days and start back on the micro tables until my pattern recognizer indicates it is safe to play at my normal level.

[Rokstar]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at your own game. Maybe you're playing at stakes that are too high for your bankroll? Maybe the cashout causes you to play differently (tighter)?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the most likely explanation for any sort of "cashout curse" IMO. Back when I was young, stupid and underbankrolled, I felt like there was some sort of "curse" as well, but looking back that's probably because I was going from a tiny bankroll to a tinier bankroll when I cashed out and was basically just scared money at the tables. Now that I keep myself at a bankroll at least somewhat appropriate for my level I don't notice it anymore.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
if not on forums like this, how could the word ever get out. Several people come here and tell you poker is rigged, cashout curse, blah blah blah. Everyone gets the same answer.

[/ QUOTE ]


It is my opinion that many of the 'cash-out curse' conspiracy theorists learn of it and talk about it in live poker-rooms and private home-games.

The number of people I met on the PPM cruise who talked incessently about the cash-out curse and how 'you can just tell that the cards on party aren't the same as a real card-room' was simply incredible.
Many of these players, imo, do not frequent poker chat-boards like 2+2.


When in Vegas during the WSOP...if a couple of online-qualifiers were playing in a ring-game at the Mirage or somewhere and talking about what site they qualified on and so forth...inevitibly there would be another player or a dealer asking 'how can you even trust that stuff? you can just tell the cards don't run right there.' etc etc.

I really think these ideas of 'cash-out curses' and what-not really permeate the B&M and home-games more than internet forums such as this.

[Eder]

You're one of the lucky ones that only goes card dead after cashout....I have downswings without cashing out!!! wtf I'm gonna email support and find out why.

[BigF]

[ QUOTE ]
For me the "cashout curse" is just because I'll usually withdraw after a nice hot run, and its just the inevitable cooldown I'm due for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this quote in "cashout curse" threads all the time but it's simply not true. If you cash out after a hot run of cards, the odds of you having a bad run of cards (or another hot run for that matter) are the same as a fresh start. You are not due for anything.

It's like saying it's heads 20 times in a row it's due for a tail. We all know it's not true.

I posted on this forum before i read a single threadon the subject, mainly to keep my opinons as MINE..
I got hamered with the 'your an idiot' ,more for my lack of grace with words than the subjcect matter i believe.. SO, thanks pokerrookie for haveing that grace and sticking up for an idiot.
also, i posted on the revese of the cashout curse, after a deposit i get super lucky.
ah well, thanks again for making me feel better.

[MicroBob]

Also - I wanted to briefly address the comment that nicestack had regarding 'not appreciating getting slammed' (I believe it was).

I don't think I was too harsh in either of my posts on this subject to date.
We've had many people ask this question on cash-out curses before...almost all are less experienced on this stuff.


Saying that one is 'playing badly' or 'doesnt understand the variance' is not an insult.
It is simply a fact that many many players out there THINK they are playing 'correctly' when they simply are not playing well.
It is also a fact that many many players have very little understanding of the variance that takes place in this crazy little game.


If a good player tells me that my understanding of poker or variance or whatever is flawed then I simply want to know why they think so and then want to try to gain some insight/knowledge.


I was pretty honest in my post...but that doesn't mean it was a slam.
Your understanding of variance does seem flawed and does your system of trying to 'lock-in' a win as well as your belief in a cash-out curse because you might happen to think you are missing more flops for the 200-300 hands immediately following your cash-out.
You are not alone in these misunderstandings.
they are extremely common amongst newer or just plain less-knowledgeable players.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if not on forums like this, how could the word ever get out. Several people come here and tell you poker is rigged, cashout curse, blah blah blah. Everyone gets the same answer.

[/ QUOTE ]


It is my opinion that many of the 'cash-out curse' conspiracy theorists learn of it and talk about it in live poker-rooms and private home-games.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, but don't you think this is because the people talking about it live are less likely to be told what fucktards they are how they should seriously consider killing themselves.

[MicroBob]

I sure as hell wasn't going to and have not really seen anyone else do that either.

when 2 guys at our dinner table were talking endlessly about the cash-out curse and 'messed up cards' on the PPM cruise and then asked me what I thought I just said that I didn't think there was such a thing.
They proceeded to go on and on about how I was exactly the type of person who they wouldn't put the cash-out curse on anyway since I play full-time (and they want to keep the high-volume players evidently because they keep the games going, etc).
They were typical normal guys....but once they got going they just sounded like conspiracy-theorists who wouldn't shut-up about how aliens from Mars killed JFK and how the government is watching you through your TV set.


I basically just ignored these discussions as best I could.
There was no point in arguing with them because it would only make them more upset and determined to prove their point and I just wanted them to shut the hell up.


Both were adamant that they were going to stop playing at party completely because the cash-out curses are getting worse for them.

I have a feeling that they have both said this several times in the past though (for one of the guys...he has played in 3 of the first 4 PPM's....so it strikes me as unlikely that he is just going to quit Party entirely no matter how adamant he might be about it).


The lengths to which many people go to justify their losing sessions is just unfathomable to me.
If I lose...the last thing I do is blame the site itself or the opponents who 'just dont play right'
I do blame myself though.
Even if it was a horrible run of cards...I'm always fairly certain that my 80BB loss could have been only 70BB's if I had played a few hands more correctly along the way (to either maximize a winning hand...or minimize my chip-spewing on the losing hands).


Final tid-bit - The day after the PPM dinner with these 2 geniuses I am in day 2 of the tournament.
I get moved to a table right next to the older of the two guys and we say hi to each other.
Later...short-stack from UTG raises all-in (this was a limit tournament...he was trying to hang-on for the money...but it was obvious he was going to have to play a hand now).

The CO re-raises (to knock out the button and blinds) after debating forever out loud 'I'm pretty sure I have to call here' blah blah blah.

Short-stack has JJ....LP trying to knock him out has A2o.

Flop comes T22.

The JJ guy gets up to leave a litle bit dejected.

The turn comes the J and the whole table goes "Oh wow!!" and the whole room looks at us (this jack was the difference between him winning $5200 or busting-out with nothing).


After the hand..I turn to the guy I had dinner with (who was talking mostly about some IMPOSSIBLE hand he lost online where his opponent had 72o and called his AA all-in) and I jokingly say "hey...that's just like one of those online hands!!" (kind of like Paul Phillips did I believe in a WPT tourney)
The guy very seriously responds, "Yeah. You never really see hands like that happen live. Those are the kinds of hands that only happen online."
I might have said "Well...we just DID see it happen live" or something like that but don't remember if I did or not.

It was still my policy to generally avoid the topic in publuc places because it looks to me to be the same as arguing against people who think that radio-waves via the floridation in our drinking water enables the CIA to spy on us.



For the love of god...Will somebody PLEASE get me my freaking tin-foil hat!!!
The UV rays are higher than normal today and I don't want the DirectTV and XMradio satellite waves to penetrate the ozone layer to contaminate any of my cooking utensils!!!
If I stand on one foot while wearing my special hat I should be able to divert the rays to my neighbors kitchen.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If word got out that their software had a built-in "cashout" mode to manipulate the players, they'd lose all of their customers to other online poker sites. It makes no sense for them to do that.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that there is a cashout curse, or that sites are rigged for some players, a doom switch, if you will. However, if not on forums like this, how could the word ever get out. Several people come here and tell you poker is rigged, cashout curse, blah blah blah. Everyone gets the same answer. Your an idiot, a fucktard, a donk, YSSCKY, etc.... Not surprisingly, they go away. People on this forum are extremely close minded when it comes to these sorts of possibilities. I agree we would all like to see some facts presented with these types of posts. Some data to back of claims of being rigged. But, all theories begin with a hypothesis, usually one based on their own results. The OP said, "it seems there is a cashout curse. I will do research to see if others agree." She comes to the forum and gets flamed away. Certainly research has not been shown that there is indeed a cashout curse. Nor has research been shown to prove that there is not one. Research has not shown that sites deal more second nut hands. But research has not shown that they do not deal more second nut hands.

As stated, I think online sites make a lot of money playing an honest game. However, I believe that the concept of a cashout curse, rigging the game in favor of the bad players, more second nut hands, would make sites even more money. And so, an evil minded company could rig the game to increase profits, at least until a reputable government legalized the operation and exerts some form of regulation. Do you have that much faith in the people that run these operations? Why do people have more faith in the honesty of an online poker room than they do in their own businesses, bosses, president, etc...?

Finally, my main point is this. How will the word get out that a site is dishonest when these people get treated the way they do for reporting their observations?

There was once a time when people were afraid to provide evidence that the world was round because some (perhaps more experienced posters?) thought it absolutely impossible....

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why we YSSCKY these people is because, while they NEVER NEVER NEVER present facts to support their arguments, there have been numerous responses to these poker is rigged threads over the past year or so that have included hard pokertracker data, and facts. Do a search if you don't believe me. So, no we're not close-minded, we're just sick of the same stupid arguments always popping up when they've been soundly refuted and their is not a shred of hard evidence to support them.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

[ QUOTE ]

My game is pretty tight, I rarely chase and pretty much stick to SSH preflop selections. I really want to make my living playing poker because I love the game and am sick of boring accounting jobs. Any advice would be appreciated.
GL to all.
Lauren /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I really love when people say how they rarely chase, and how they normally stick to what SSH says to do preflop. (Usually forgetting about what it says postflop.) Because 99% of the time it says "Hi, 80% of the time I make profitable plays, but 20% of the time I make unprofitable plays because I know I am going to suck out and make a lot of money"

[theben]

none

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
radio-waves via the floridation in our drinking water enables the CIA to spy on us if we forget to wear our tin foil hats .

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If word got out that their software had a built-in "cashout" mode to manipulate the players, they'd lose all of their customers to other online poker sites. It makes no sense for them to do that.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that there is a cashout curse, or that sites are rigged for some players, a doom switch, if you will. However, if not on forums like this, how could the word ever get out. Several people come here and tell you poker is rigged, cashout curse, blah blah blah. Everyone gets the same answer. Your an idiot, a fucktard, a donk, YSSCKY, etc.... Not surprisingly, they go away. People on this forum are extremely close minded when it comes to these sorts of possibilities. I agree we would all like to see some facts presented with these types of posts. Some data to back of claims of being rigged. But, all theories begin with a hypothesis, usually one based on their own results. The OP said, "it seems there is a cashout curse. I will do research to see if others agree." She comes to the forum and gets flamed away. Certainly research has not been shown that there is indeed a cashout curse. Nor has research been shown to prove that there is not one. Research has not shown that sites deal more second nut hands. But research has not shown that they do not deal more second nut hands.

As stated, I think online sites make a lot of money playing an honest game. However, I believe that the concept of a cashout curse, rigging the game in favor of the bad players, more second nut hands, would make sites even more money. And so, an evil minded company could rig the game to increase profits, at least until a reputable government legalized the operation and exerts some form of regulation. Do you have that much faith in the people that run these operations? Why do people have more faith in the honesty of an online poker room than they do in their own businesses, bosses, president, etc...?

Finally, my main point is this. How will the word get out that a site is dishonest when these people get treated the way they do for reporting their observations?

There was once a time when people were afraid to provide evidence that the world was round because some (perhaps more experienced posters?) thought it absolutely impossible....

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why we YSSCKY these people is because, while they NEVER NEVER NEVER present facts to support their arguments, there have been numerous responses to these poker is rigged threads over the past year or so that have included hard pokertracker data, and facts. Do a search if you don't believe me. So, no we're not close-minded, we're just sick of the same stupid arguments always popping up when they've been soundly refuted and their is not a shred of hard evidence to support them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this, but put yourself in the shoes of a new player. Thinks he's good, loses, believes he's been cheated, goes looking for answers. Finds 2+2, poses a simple question...and is told to kill himself. I guess this response is justifiable in your opinion and that's just great. But tell me, which is more possible...that AK is just a drawing hand, or that online poker could be rigged? I don't see people asking the former told to go kill themselves, or at least to seriously consider it.

And sure, you might hope people would use the search engine, but as most posters would agree, while 2+2 is the foremost authority on gambling books, they are not google.

And finally, while I believe the sites are not rigged (just making sure people still remember that disclaimer), any number of hands that can fit in a single database do NOT prove that it is not rigged. First, I don't think a sample size large enough could be produced, given that poker sites deal millions of hands per day. And second, the fact that aces holds up as much as it should does not mean that they weren't holding up against KK a disproportionate number of times. Or perhaps they held up on a board where one person flopped a flush, another a straight, another top pair with a good kicker, while another had KK, while still another had 72o but was playing while stoned. And maybe the later scenario happens more often than random would suggest and pokertracker won't know the difference. Logic suggests the sites aren't rigged. The experiences of the majority of long time posters suggests the sites aren't rigged. I believe the sites aren't rigged. But only a fool would believe that it is not possible.

[J_V]

Since you rarely chase, it's certainly CASHOUT CURSE.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
It was still my policy to generally avoid the topic in publuc places because it looks to me to be the same as arguing against people who think that radio-waves via the floridation in our drinking water enables the CIA to spy on us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget about chemtrails.

Or the guy that invented the 300MPG carburetor in 1963 but was murdered by the oil companies.

[Guthrie]

[ QUOTE ]
So anyway, my advice is: Every time you make $50 profit, cash it out. DO IT EVERY TIME. Don't let these bastards screw you around, man. I learnt the hard way.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is great advice. Great exercise, too. Although the other players get really mad when I keep getting up and running to the cage with their chips.