2/4 KK facing flop all-in. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : 2/4 KK facing flop all-in.

crosse91

09-08-2005, 01:03 AM

new to 400nl, my 1st night 3 tabling it. Not enough hands on villain to make any sort of read and he hadn't done anything at the table yet. How do you play this hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($364)
SB ($907)
BB ($400)
UTG ($402.30)
Hero ($413.20)
MP1 ($214)
MP2 ($682.40)
MP3 ($388.20)
CO ($431.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, Hero raises to $15, 2 folds, MP3 calls $15, 2 folds, SB (poster) raises to $73, 1 fold, Hero calls $60, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($169) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $375, Hero ????

Jman28

09-08-2005, 01:06 AM

This is the easiest call ever.

09-08-2005, 01:12 AM

Make your decision before the flop. If you don't think he needs aces do do this, then push perflop (dont let a scary ace come and you fold to a QQ cont bet). However, reraising huge out of position is almost always aces, at least in my experiance at 2/4 party. It's always tough to fold kings preflop, but a blind reraise is a spot I can usually get away from.
Actually, I'm curious to see what others say, as I'm often in this spot myself and feel like a fold is too weak. How do other people play kings when someone else (who you dont have much of a read on) is representing aces, and your sitting there with 100 BB?

crosse91

09-08-2005, 01:17 AM

i hate the call preflop. I really think i need to rreraise or fold there, and i don't like folding. Is this logic flawed? I could have also been the victim of a well-executed squeeze, but the flop overbet just confuses the hell out of me. I feel completely lost, someone please help here.

Allinlife

09-08-2005, 01:20 AM

no, reraising preflop is insane unless you've seen him donk off before. you fold QQ/JJ and get instah called by AA.

I can't really see a lay preflop unless you had his stats and it showed something like 15vpip/3pfr.

flop push is very scary as many people play AA that way, but I'd probably make a crying call give decent pot odds and expect to break even or something.

Prevaricator

09-08-2005, 01:20 AM

I like preflop. I think a reraise preflop would be bad in this game, because people's reraising standards are narrow. On the flop just get the money in, if he had AA, so be it.

crosse91

09-08-2005, 01:23 AM

through 35-40 hands i had him at 12/7 and folded to every postflop raise. This isn't alot of hands, but it is what it is. Noted that reraise is bad, that came about from second guessing later.

09-08-2005, 01:26 AM

So you guys never fold KK for fear of AA with these stacks unless the villain gives you good reason? Seems like this may be a big flaw in my game, I guess it's time I got pockertracker. I've been assuming that most 2/4s at party don't like to rr without the goods, I guess I was off.

Prevaricator

09-08-2005, 01:35 AM

The "goods" is relative to the player. How can he put hero on KK, he could push QQ on that flop easily.

AceHiStation

09-08-2005, 11:30 AM

crosse91... whats your party name... and what's his? I play those rooms quite a bit and wouldn't mind checking my pokertracker for a little more information.

Leptyne

09-08-2005, 01:45 PM

When you're the SB and have made a big re-raise of a standard open-raise by UTG +1, and then UTG +1 calls, what kind of hands would you put UTG+1 on? You think he calls the huge re-raise with something that QQ can beat?

Sure there are some players that make this move with less than AA. But I know the regulars that do. If a player that I don't know makes this kind of play I give him credit for AA and fold pre-flop. I'll keep giving him credit until he shows me that he can and will make this move with something other than AA.

AceHiStation

09-08-2005, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When you're the SB and have made a big re-raise of a standard open-raise by UTG +1, and then UTG +1 calls, what kind of hands would you put UTG+1 on? You think he calls the huge re-raise with something that QQ can beat?

Sure there are some players that make this move with less than AA. But I know the regulars that do. If a player that I don't know makes this kind of play I give him credit for AA and fold pre-flop. I'll keep giving him credit until he shows me that he can and will make this move with something other than AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take the other approach typically in the party 2/4 rooms. Innocent until proven guilty is your line of thought, or solid until proven donkish. I take the other end of the spectrum... Guilty until proven innocent, or donkish until proven otherwise. I think I call this 80% of the time, depending on my mood. Hell, you could always suck-out, right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

crosse91

09-08-2005, 06:12 PM

sent you a pm.....

Leptyne

09-09-2005, 12:35 PM

You're correct on my approach to Party NLHE, however I must give proper credit to 2+2. That's advice I took from the Archives. Speaking of Archives here's a link to a Diablo post on playing KK that gets re-raised pre-flop.

archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=472788&Fo rum=,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&L imit=25&Main=472788&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name =122&daterange=1&newerval=&newertype=w&olderval=9& oldertype=m&bodyprev=#Post472788 (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=472788&Fo rum=,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&L imit=25&Main=472788&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name =122&daterange=1&newerval=&newertype=w&olderval=9& oldertype=m&bodyprev=#Post472788)

And here:

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=298208&Fo rum=,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, &Words=&Searchpage=16&Limit=25&Main=298208&Search= true&where=bodysub&Name=122&daterange=1&newerval=& newertype=w&olderval=14&oldertype=m&bodyprev=#Post 298208 (http://http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=298208&Fo rum=,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, &Words=&Searchpage=16&Limit=25&Main=298208&Search= true&where=bodysub&Name=122&daterange=1&newerval=& newertype=w&olderval=14&oldertype=m&bodyprev=#Post 298208)

09-09-2005, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is the easiest call ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

AdamBragar

09-09-2005, 04:23 PM

I play 400 NL full tables a ton, and without a read, I think folding preflop is a viable option. There's a chance you are up against QQ here and lesser chances you are up against AK, KK and JJ. But once you call preflop, you're committed to put your stack in.

FYI, I would play AA and QQ pretty similarly to how the SB played this hand.

That guy

09-09-2005, 05:53 PM

you put 19% of your stack in pre-flop and this is a great flop... (no Q, no A)... call and yell 'rebuy!', its luckier...

seriously,

crosse91

09-09-2005, 06:51 PM

am i wrong in thinking that i am not "committed" to to this hand since i called preflop? Yes, 20% of my stack is in there, but i don't have to lose the last 80% when i'm not sure if i'm ahead. There is no excuse to saying that i should just shove in the rest just b/c i have already put in 20% of my stack. That, by itself, in NO way commits me.

That guy

09-09-2005, 10:08 PM

That, by itself, in NO way commits me.

no, but this flop is a very good one. it is that combination that should enable a call.

09-10-2005, 04:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like preflop. I think a reraise preflop would be bad in this game, because people's reraising standards are narrow. On the flop just get the money in, if he had AA, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here here, if he has AA you are going to pay him off whatever with that flop. NO player in the world folds KK there. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

savman

09-10-2005, 04:22 AM

Double Down

09-10-2005, 08:00 AM

You played it fine. If you reraise again preflop, he will probably only call with aces and possibly fold queens. Reraising does no good because no more money is going in unless you're beat. The only way to get paid off on this hand is call, instacall flop all in, and then pray he has queens or jacks. The thinking of "Push and if he has the aces, so be it" is flawed because the only way you will get paid with the better hand is if you let him bet it and you call.

Kirkrrr

09-10-2005, 08:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When you're the SB and have made a big re-raise of a standard open-raise by UTG +1, and then UTG +1 calls, what kind of hands would you put UTG+1 on? You think he calls the huge re-raise with something that QQ can beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The fact that Hero just called instead of 3-betting pre-flop makes him harder to put on KK.

On the flop, I call. If he got AA, oh well.

As a side question, who believes that if Villain had AA, he played it well?

Kirk

09-10-2005, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
am i wrong in thinking that i am not "committed" to to this hand since i called preflop? Yes, 20% of my stack is in there, but i don't have to lose the last 80% when i'm not sure if i'm ahead. There is no excuse to saying that i should just shove in the rest just b/c i have already put in 20% of my stack. That, by itself, in NO way commits me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what he's getting at is, if you call preflop what are you hopeing for on the flop?

A similar hand came up for me yesterday on party 400NL.

LP I raise to 16 with KK. Guy's 1st hand at the table, posts from cut off, reraises me to $36. I call.

Flop 9 high, I check to him. He pots it.

Can you guess what he had? J9o and we ended up getting it all in on the turn (he hit a 9 on the river).

I realize that the numbers aren't exactly the same, PF reraise was smaller and it wasn't a huge overbet on the flop but it's a similar situation as there was no read on the guy and seems to be representing AA or possibly QQ where I hold KK. It also shows there are still some pretty bad donks at this level.

The way your guy played the hand seems pretty donkish so I would put QQ and JJ into his range there. Call and live with the results or fold it up PF if you can't make that kind of call on the flop.