I have trouble with jacks

[pergesu]

Medium stack with jacks UTG at level 3...gotta be the situation that I have no clue what to do with.

***** Hand History for Game 2674255549 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:15547346 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, September 08, 00:53:06 EDT 2005
Table Table 35241 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: yeahthekev ( $600 )
Seat 3: D_Everest ( $645 )
Seat 4: koolkakadoo ( $2485 )
Seat 6: Kalusa69 ( $1890 )
Seat 7: pattywack85 ( $700 )
Seat 8: cpooks2004 ( $1680 )
Trny:15547346 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to pattywack85 [ Jh Js ]
pattywack85 raises [125].
cpooks2004 folds.
yeahthekev folds.
D_Everest folds.
koolkakadoo folds.
Kalusa69 calls [75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, Td, Kd ]
Kalusa69 checks.
pattywack85 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
Kalusa69 bets [100].
pattywack85 calls [100].
** Dealing River ** [ 5h ]
Kalusa69 checks.
pattywack85 checks.

[Newt_Buggs]

I would bet the flop, this isn't a way ahead/way behind situation. You stand to get paid off by weaker hands (pair of 10s, flush/straight draw, a donkey with who knows what) and your hand is vulnerable.

[golfcchs]

Bet the flop you have position with only one overcard on the board. Plus with the flop check you dont know where you are at on the turn when the villain bets.

[ChuckNorris]

Your line wouldn't be horrible on a less coordinated flop, although I still would cont bet. Here I think you simply have to bet. What are you afraid of? The board is just as scary or even scarier to your opponent. If you get checkraised, you can fold with a pretty clear conscience. After you checked the flop, I think you played it fine from there on.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the flop, this isn't a way ahead/way behind situation. You stand to get paid off by weaker hands (pair of 10s, flush/straight draw, a donkey with who knows what) and your hand is vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

listen to newt.

Also, the way it played out, I fire 150-200 on the river.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the way it played out, I fire 150-200 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your reasoning behind this? I don't see villain folding better hands or paying off with worse.

[jt1]

I bet 125 on the flop.

Who c-bets this turn if called, because, I think I would.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, the way it played out, I fire 150-200 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your reasoning behind this? I don't see villain folding better hands or paying off with worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the villain seems to not have us beat. I really don't see him playing any K this way. He could at least bet more on the turn.

That said, if we are never behind, it's obvious to bet. I suppose we are behind sometimes, but there are many more times that we are against AT or QT or 99 who will think we missed a draw and pay us off. I do not see anyone checkraising this river.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Your line wouldn't be horrible on a less coordinated flop, although I still would cont bet. Here I think you simply have to bet. What are you afraid of? The board is just as scary or even scarier to your opponent. If you get checkraised, you can fold with a pretty clear conscience. After you checked the flop, I think you played it fine from there on.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's 275 in the pot on the flop and Hero has 575 behind. You want to bet something on the flop and then fold to a check-raise?

OK, I'm sure you can see now why that isn't the best plan.

Chip stacks and pot size dictate the play on this hand and that's all there is to it. Hero made this bed with his preflop raise choice and then laid in it well.

If you want to play the hand differently, that's cool... but you would have to do something different preflop. Perg played this well.

For those who want to fire on the river, you'll want to take a look at the pot size, your remaining stack, and the other stacks at the table. Your marginal gain with the relatively rare instance in which he calls with a loser is not at all worth the tournament EV you still have in your remaining stack. Plus if you get check-raised on the river you are forced to chose between a bad decision and a horrible one. Those aren't the kind of choices you want to be making on the river in level 3 of a SNG.

Irieguy

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

There's 275 in the pot on the flop and Hero has 575 behind. You want to bet something on the flop and then fold to a check-raise?

OK, I'm sure you can see now why that isn't the best plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree. I didn't think about his stack size here.

[ QUOTE ]

For those who want to fire on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Me.

[ QUOTE ]
you'll want to take a look at the pot size, your remaining stack, and the other stacks at the table. Your marginal gain with the relatively rare instance in which he calls with a loser is not at all worth the tournament EV you still have in your remaining stack. Plus if you get check-raised on the river you are forced to chose between a bad decision and a horrible one. Those aren't the kind of choices you want to be making on the river in level 3 of a SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I don't see the huge difference here between cEV and $EV that the stack size situation here creates. Sure, there's some difference, but I don't see how it's enough to steer us away from what I think is a pretty +cEV value bet.

I really can't see a hand that played out this way (maybe 55?) that would check-raise the river. I think a bet will be raised here less than 1% of the time. Yes, that's a really bad situation, but I think we can almost ignore it's possibility.

The rest comes down to how often you think you will have the best hand when called. I think a river bet here following this action is called by Tx or 77-99 far more often than Kx or any other hand that beats us. (Not that Kx would fold, but that the villain probably doesn't have it.) What hands do people think the villain might have here?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
There's 275 in the pot on the flop and Hero has 575 behind. You want to bet something on the flop and then fold to a check-raise?

OK, I'm sure you can see now why that isn't the best plan.


[/ QUOTE ]


Let's say Perg raised 150 preflop and cbet the flop the same. he gets check raised and folds, -- he still has t400. I don't think that that is desperate just yet unless the blinds will go up the next hand.

However, I didn't think of the stack sizes at first because I'm currently focused on improving how I manipulate my opponents pot odds. AFter thinking about stack sizes, I think hero should have bet 150 preflop and gone all-in on this particular flop against BB. Or he could have limped PF and hoped for a raise behind him. But checking the flop hoping for a probe bet on the turn would have been great if Hero is prepared to raise or call all-in. Am I seeing things at all clearly?

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the flop, this isn't a way ahead/way behind situation. You stand to get paid off by weaker hands (pair of 10s, flush/straight draw, a donkey with who knows what) and your hand is vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

listen to newt.

Also, the way it played out, I fire 150-200 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me explain why I didn't bet on the flop or river.

I probably have the best hand here, but I can't know for sure, and I don't have enough chips to find out by betting. I think if I bet the flop, I have to bet the turn as well, and I just don't have enough to get through it. So I'd like to get to a showdown as cheaply as possible.

If I bet the flop and get called, I'm shutting down. Now if he leads on the turn or river, I'm folding. As Irie said, I have to choose between something bad and something awful.

I checked the flop with the intention of calling a modest bet. If he makes a large bet, I let go, and if he leads the river I dump it as well.

What this does for me is only give him one opportunity to steal the pot from me - on the river. Because if I bet the flop, he can take it away on either the turn or river. But if I check it, I take the away the opportunity to steal on the turn. His bet lets me know if I should continue or if I'm probably beat.

Hopefully that all makes sense. The main idea is I wanted to maximize my chances of winning the pot while putting as few chips in as possible. I thought if I bet the flop, I have to bet the turn. And betting the flop lets him try a steal on two rounds rather than just one.

[jeffraider]

The preflop raise is the real problem here. I think 125 is almost begging for a call, especially at the $22s. Make it 150 or 175 and call a push. That said, it means you've gotta get aggressive on that flop, but I think this makes life easier for you with jacks.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought if I bet the flop, I have to bet the turn. And betting the flop lets him try a steal on two rounds rather than just one.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree you would have had to bet the turn if you bet the flop, and that's the line I thought you should have done until I noticed how small of a stack you had.

However, I guess I'm not good enough to fold at any point here. Villian has a big enuf stack to play around with and you have shown weakness at every point in this hand. I think if I'm checking the flop, I'm doing so to induce a turn bluff. Otherwise, I'm going all-in on the flop.

I'd also bet 150 PF or limp.


Still, I'm very impressed with your level of thinking. You were able to play your opponent into doing exactly what you wanted. I'm going to bookmark this thread, because, though I think you played the hand poorly IMHO, this hand will teach me something when I'm ready to learn it.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I guess I'm not good enough to fold at any point here. Villian has a big enuf stack to play around with and you have shown weakness at every point in this hand. I think if I'm checking the flop, I'm doing so to induce a turn bluff. Otherwise, I'm going all-in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played the hand weak so I could keep the pot small. Even before the flop, my hand is very volatile to anyone that calls a raise. This means I won't know where I stand preflop, and many flops can also leave me sort of confused. But just because I don't know where I am doesn't mean I don't want to win the pot. But because I don't know where I'm at, I want to risk as few chips as possible to win. So I do the best I can to win the pot, putting in few chips - which is checking behind, and check-calling modest bets. I can still win, but it doesn't cost me a lot to do so.

It's all about determining your edge. When it's high and precise, try to win as many chips as you can. When it's low or a very broad, fuzzy range, you need to invest the absolute minimum it takes to win the pot.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
There's 275 in the pot on the flop and Hero has 575 behind. You want to bet something on the flop and then fold to a check-raise?

OK, I'm sure you can see now why that isn't the best plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right. But if hero's small stack dictates such weak play on the flop, what do you and the others think about pushing preflop?

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right. But if hero's small stack dictates such weak play on the flop, what do you and the others think about pushing preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if he was in later position with a few others in the pot. I really don't like pushing UTG for 700 to pick up 75.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like pushing UTG for 700 to pick up 75.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't exactly love it either, but can you really get much value from worse hands on the flop with a hand like JJ? At least against good and/or aggressive players you're gonna have to give up many pots where you would be ahead on the flop if you check/wold like a wussy whenever an overcard falls. Of course there is also the upside that you can sometimes get away from the pot when a villain actually hits their overcards, but on the downside you rarely get value from them if they don't.

I would have checked the flop, bet the turn if he checked, reraised the turn if he bet, you have position on him on the river, so if he has a weak king he will check the river or if he has a ten he'll check aswell. By reraising him on the turn or betting on the turn you'll find out exactly where you are.

[pergesu]

Can anyone comment on my reasoning behind how I played the hand? I'm not saying it's right - could be totally off. But I'd like to hear some opinions on the thought process.