jobs are important ?

[gorie]

i know it sounds like a stupid question, but how do you convince someone that having a job is important ?

this person is 28 years old, in debt 25,000 does not have a college degree (some school but never finished, which is where a lot of the debt came from) and is stuck on the reasoning that having a job and money does not equal happiness and how it's pointless to get a crappy job working for $7 doing something they hate because they'll never get out of debt anyway. ? they think they've ruined the rest of their life because they'll never be able to have the things they wanted in life like a house etc so why bother ?

right now they live with someone that supports them but the person supporting them doesn't like this, and doesn't treat them very well because of it.

i should also mention they have been really unlucky with jobs in the past. and have done the whole temp agency thing and usually get let go too soon when they do find something they can do, or quit because they can't stand the job. so their job history does not look too good. they get turned down a lot for jobs when they do send resumes and i think they've given up.

don't post if you're just going to say mean stuff. i would like some advice on how you'd handle this if it was someone you cared about ?

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
know it sounds like a stupid question, but how do you convince someone that having a job is important ?


[/ QUOTE ]

You are asking this question on a forum where 25% of the people are currently unemployed and the other 75% wish they were?

You gotta be kidding!!

[kerssens]

Does this person rely on the person they live with for everything? I think it feels good to be able to provide things for oneself. I don't like my job but it gives me somewhere to go during the day, I'd get really bored. I get bored if I stay home for more than one day in a row.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
know it sounds like a stupid question, but how do you convince someone that having a job is important ?


[/ QUOTE ]

You are asking this question on a forum where 25% of the people are currently unemployed and the other 75% wish they were?

You gotta be kidding!!

[/ QUOTE ]

but they still all want to be making money... that's different.

why did you bother to respond just to say that ?

[jokerthief]

<font color="blue"> I think the easiest aproach would be to convince this person to go back to school to learn a skill. Talk to them about getting a degree in a one or two year program. In this day and age education is really a necessity for any sort of good job. If this person thought they could get a decent job, then maybe they will find some motivation.</font>

[SammyKid11]

Tell him to leave his girlfriend so you can have him all to yourself.....

Okay, maybe that was mean. Actually, tell him that everyone's gotta start somewhere, that if he has any respect for himself whatsoever that he'll get off his ass and try SOMETHING in life. Even working low-wage jobs, work a couple of them and save up money to go back to school. He needs a five-year plan before he can have a 5-month plan. Sounds like he's pretty hopeless at the moment, so developing a long-term goal that shows him he wouldn't be working in vain might be just the thing to get him motivated to give something a try.

Sorry about the blanket assumption...it just really sounded like you were talking about a guy living off his GF. Anyway, that's my best idea. Typically, people that don't want to work don't. Maybe that'll help.

[RacersEdge]

For one thing tell them 25K in debt is nothing.

[kerssens]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> I think the easiest aproach would be to convince this person to go back to school to learn a skill. Talk to them about getting a degree in a one or two year program. In this day and age education is really a necessity for any sort of good job. If this person thought they could get a decent job, then maybe they will find some motivation.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Along these lines, schools are good hookups for jobs/internships

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
why did you bother to respond just to say that ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you asked for no mean responses and my only other reasonable choice was to suggest you mind you own business and allow her to live her life the way she chooses.

[disjunction]

This depends a large part on your table image. Let's assume the villain respects you. My initial reactions are:

(1) Mostly, there is nothing you can do. Your words alone can not make this person wake up motivated and persistent.

(2) There is a large chance this "What's the point", giving up whining is a ploy to elicit sympathy from you. And that's what you should be, sympathetic most of the time. Mixed in with 10% kick-in-the-butt "why haven't you done anything yet soldier"? talk. But save that for the appropriate times.

(3) Mostly, you should be a one-note instrument. "So, did you look for a job today?". "How was your day, did you get a job?". "Find any jobs today?". Yeah, be annoying.

(4) It sounds like this person has general psychological issues that may have to be dealt with first. Get them to the gym, motivate them with baby achievable steps, etc. This is situation dependent.

[touchfaith]

I was once told..."Get a job that is your hobby and you will never work again..." and I believe this 100%.

Sounds like your friend has some wiggle-room to go ahead and take an entry level position in the hobby of their choosing.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this person rely on the person they live with for everything? I think it feels good to be able to provide things for oneself. I don't like my job but it gives me somewhere to go during the day, I'd get really bored. I get bored if I stay home for more than one day in a row.

[/ QUOTE ]


yes they are dependent on them pretty much.

they say they are trying, and i know it is hard to find jobs , but it just seems like they're stuck on the idea that it's pointless and that bothers me.

[ QUOTE ]
i know it sounds like a stupid question, but how do you convince someone that having a job is important ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna try and balance the yin and yang here and say that having a job may not be important for him

[Chairman Wood]

I know money may be a problem but a shrink/counselor may help.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why did you bother to respond just to say that ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you asked for no mean responses and my only other reasonable choice was to suggest you mind you own business and allow her to live her life the way she chooses.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're assuming it is none of my business.
thanks anyway.

[wacki]

I have a friend that is very smart in certain areas, but very dumb in others. He has no emotional control, is very charismatic, and couldn't find the discipline to get through highschool calculus let alone college. He had a job earning 50K a year as a phoneman but hated it. He quit, moved to California and started selling driveways, house remodeling, etc. He loves his new life and seems to be doing very well.

Maybe your friend just needs to mix it up. Or maybe your friend is suffereing from depression. Professional therapy?

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
I know money may be a problem but a shrink/counselor may help.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't a bad idea, i know they are depressed.

but they would just focus on the part that this would cost money that they don't have and would never happen.

[kerssens]

what kinds of things do they like?

[lucas9000]

i think for me the key to approaching them about this is the debt. being free from debt is freedom...havign a job helps you get rid of debt.

also, it's totally unfair for one party to bear the responsibility of supporting the other. if the deadbeat (for lack of a better term...sorry) really cared about the other, he/she would contribute.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
what kinds of things do they like?

[/ QUOTE ]

they say they want to help people.

[HopeydaFish]

When I was 25, I was in much the same boat as Gorie's friend. I was working a crappy retail sales job, just scraping by and hating my life. I had just finished my B.A., but it wasn't going to help me land a better job. I was only 25 years old, but I had almost convinced myself that I was too old to go back to school (now that I'm 31, I realize how foolish this notion was). Thankfully a friend of mine had just gotten laid off from his job and was thinking of going to College to learn programming. Also thankfully, I had just had a big argument with my boss and was desperate for a change. I basically made the decision overnight to go back to school, went to the bank and got a loan for $25k (tuition was $17k -- it was an intensive 8 months course), and was back in school full-time a month later. It took a few years of working for a bunch of crappy companies in order to get enough experience to find a well-paying job, but I finally landed a decent job a couple of years ago and have paid off all my debt and have a bright future ahead of me.

I didn't mean to go for so long with that story...but my point is that I was in much the same circustances as your friend is, and my life is completely different 5 years later. He needs to understand that at 28 years old, his life is only just beginning. When he's 38 and looking back at how he thought his life was over at 28, he'll realize what a fool he was. $25,000 of debt is nothing -- or at least it's not enough that he should consider himself as being crippled by it.

He needs to figure out what type of job he'd enjoy doing, and then come up with a plan so that he can do that for a living. He just needs a plan, and then needs to stick to it. It's no more complicated than that.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
right now they live with someone that supports them but the person supporting them doesn't like this, and doesn't treat them very well because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, this is key. the relationship shoudl be the most important thing. if the slacker is not willing to compromise for the good of the relationship, then both parties should probably go their separate ways.

to me this doesn't boil down to money, it boils down to respect and caring for the person bearing the burden of supporting both.

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
you're assuming it is none of my business.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are really only three circumstances under which it would be any of your business:

1) If the person in question is really you
2) If the person in question owes you the 25 grand
3) If you are the person abusing the 28 year old bum

How you could believe otherwise is unreasonable and is only being nosey.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you're assuming it is none of my business.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are really only three circumstances under which it would be any of your business:

1) If the person in question is really you
2) If the person in question owes you the 25 grand
3) If you are the person abusing the 28 year old bum

How you could believe otherwise is unreasonable and is only being nosey.

[/ QUOTE ]

you should be a detective or something.

[jokerthief]

[ QUOTE ]
they say they want to help people.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> I used to have a job working with developmentaly disabled adults and I didn't have any experience when I got the job. The job is to teach basic life skills like laundry, cooking, cleaning, ect. This job is in high supply and there are few people who are willing to do it. Your friend could check this out. </font>

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
He quit, moved to California and started selling driveways

[/ QUOTE ]

im in the market for a driveway. can he get me a good deal?

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
they say they want to help people.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> I used to have a job working with developmentaly disabled adults and I didn't have any experience when I got the job. The job is to teach basic life skills like laundry, cooking, cleaning, ect. This job is in high supply and there are few people who are willing to do it. Your friend could check this out. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought this would be a good thing for them to do also! but they said they tried (i guess there aren't many jobs like this available where they live?) and didn't get a call back. so they assume they'ren ot good enough to do something like this even when the ad says no previous experience required.

it's tough looking for a job when you keep getting declined /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you're assuming it is none of my business.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are really only three circumstances under which it would be any of your business:

1) If the person in question is really you
2) If the person in question owes you the 25 grand
3) If you are the person abusing the 28 year old bum

How you could believe otherwise is unreasonable and is only being nosey.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of us naturally assumed that it was either Gorie or her boyfriend. It doesn't really matter who it is, though, the situation should be treated as hypothetical.

[kerssens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what kinds of things do they like?

[/ QUOTE ]

they say they want to help people.

[/ QUOTE ]

My sister's boyfriend found a program at a community college were he's working in the school's daycare that's paying for his classes in child care/teaching. There are programs like that everywhere I assume. My advice would be to try to identify where they want to help and find out who provides the service and ask how they can help. If its just part time at the beginning or even unpaid the experience could only help.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
right now they live with someone that supports them but the person supporting them doesn't like this, and doesn't treat them very well because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, this is key. the relationship shoudl be the most important thing. if the slacker is not willing to compromise for the good of the relationship, then both parties should probably go their separate ways.

to me this doesn't boil down to money, it boils down to respect and caring for the person bearing the burden of supporting both.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree...

it can be tough when you're depressed though. i think a lot of it is "if they love me it shouldn't be a big deal" or something, which is bad. but considering "money doesn't equal happiness" it some how makes sense in their confused head.

[bishopstrt]

Wow that's a horrible spot for you to be in. I'm assuming the person in question is your boyfriend and you're supporting him.

You care about him but you don't treat him well?


I'm pretty sure he knows he should get a job. But if the alternative is living with an understanding girlfriend who supports him what is his motivation? Self respect? I think you should just be real honest with him and explain that enough's enough and you don't intend to support his sorry ass after next month. If you're too nice he'll continue to take advantage.

Depression can sometimes be a good excuse for really bright, really lazy men. I know one or two.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
right now they live with someone that supports them but the person supporting them doesn't like this, and doesn't treat them very well because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, this is key. the relationship shoudl be the most important thing. if the slacker is not willing to compromise for the good of the relationship, then both parties should probably go their separate ways.

to me this doesn't boil down to money, it boils down to respect and caring for the person bearing the burden of supporting both.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree...

it can be tough when you're depressed though. i think a lot of it is "if they love me it shouldn't be a big deal" or something, which is bad. but considering "money doesn't equal happiness" it some how makes sense in their confused head.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have a very good friend who just recently lost a serious relationship because of this kind of issue. he regrets it every day. i really think that it's tough love time in this situation...lay it all out on the line for the slacker (again, for lack of a better word).

fwiw, this thread would be easier to understand if you'd just given the two people random names, like "mat" and "david." /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[IndieMatty]

They need to find something with the town/municipality. I have a friend who is just like this, except he lived in the bunk bed with his younger brother.

He is super smart, but lazy. He just got a job with the water department and is happier then I have seen him in years.

[rwesty]

this isn't her boyfriend, it's a girl she knows

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow that's a horrible spot for you to be in. I'm assuming the person in question is your boyfriend and you're supporting him.

You care about him but you don't treat him well?


I'm pretty sure he knows he should get a job. But if the alternative is living with an understanding girlfriend who supports him what is his motivation? Self respect? I think you should just be real honest with him and explain that enough's enough and you don't intend to support his sorry ass after next month. If you're too nice he'll continue to take advantage.

Depression can sometimes be a good excuse for really bright, really lazy men. I know one or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it doesn't have anything to do with me, actually.

if anything i'm more familiar with the other end of it (being a lazy jobless bum) so you'd think i'd be able to figure out how to help someone else straighten themselves up but i can't.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
fwiw, this thread would be easier to understand if you'd just given the two people random names, like "mat" and "david." /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i know, but it's more interesting for me to read responses this way. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kerssens]

I also think this person is thinking too big. They're not gonna be able to pay off their debt in a day, week or year. They should be thinking of trying to have a good day and repeating it the next day, etc.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
I also think this person is thinking too big. They're not gonna be able to pay off their debt in a day, week or year. They should be thinking of trying to have a good day and repeating it the next day, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

this part is hard.
i was trying to get this in their head, and that not having a job is going to make it worse not better.

i told them even if they made $9 an hour they could probably pay off the debt in around 10 years. i say this to them and it turns into "it will take longer than that, and i doubt i'd make $9 an hour probably more like $7" - and that it doesn't matter because it's too late and they'll be 38 and still have no house or anything and just be living to pay off debt. and working for 'the man' or some babble like that.

they say in a perfect world there would be no jobs or money. just people helping people.

basically they're crazy. but i think that's just the depression talking. well that and they're a little crazy.

[bishopstrt]

okay my bad.


Still...kick their sorry ass out. You aren't exactly doing them any favors, rescuing them. Your boyfriend (or whoever) will only get it together and have self-respect when he solves his own freaking problems. And tell him that a lot of people are $25,000 in debt. It doesn't mean you can't buy a house in the future. To get a home loan you need to show you can be at a job for awile. He needs someone to smack him in the head.


Who's putting more energy into caring about this, you or your "friend"?

[kerssens]

I don't know that its all that crazy, it seems reasonable to me. There was a time when I didn't have a job or go to school when I was 19. I drained my bank account and eventually got a job but didn't get back into school for another 2 years. Four years just seemed too long. One day it just clicked and I registered for school. I don't know what made me do it. Somehow my attitude changed and I was thinking about getting through the class that was in front of me and I slowly broadened my view.

[Mat Sklansky]

Before I went back to my cushy life with Mason and 2+2, I seriously considered being a nurse. It's a noble enough job, you certainly help people, and it can be a decent living. It would still be my first choice if the poker gods get nasty.

[DasLeben]

I don't even see how someone could survive without a job. I have $400 in my bank account right now, and not enough to pay rent for next month. Lucky for me, I got a job today, so I'm good to go again.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that its all that crazy, it seems reasonable to me. There was a time when I didn't have a job or go to school when I was 19. I drained my bank account and eventually got a job but didn't get back into school for another 2 years. Four years just seemed too long. One day it just clicked and I registered for school. I don't know what made me do it. Somehow my attitude changed and I was thinking about getting through the class that was in front of me and I slowly broadened my view.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was jobless for 3 years myself and had issues similar to the .. "PERSON ?" we're talking about in this post. it's not that i think they're crazy for not wanting a job (that seems pretty normal to me /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) or not having one (it's hard to get one, too), i meant they're crazy when they get into the talk about how having a job is worthless because it only helps the government and you get nothing from it. or that it's pointless because they have debt. i just have a hard time relating to that way of thinking ?

i remember once in the past they made a comment about how it was stupid to give $3 in a card for someone (someone else was putting money in a card and only had three ones) and it should either be $5 or nothing.

it's like $7 an hour sucks too much so they'd rather have $0 an hour.

[TStoneMBD]

i feel sympathy and sorrow for this person, and empathetically i understand where he is coming from. he has all this debt over his head, no skills, no prospects, no future. theres no reason for him to try, because no matter how hard he tries he will fail at living a life better then what he has already. its not fair for the people he mooches off of, but im sure he realizes this. he doesnt care enough about the people hes mooching off of because he doesnt even care about himself.

he needs to find a way to become self-sufficient and find a way to have happiness. but thats obvious, even to him. however, he doesnt have a solution to this problem because there likely isnt one, so he doesnt try. hes either waiting for time to pass him by or hes hoping tommorow never comes.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

this person is 28 years old, in debt 25,000 does not have a college degree (some school but never finished, which is where a lot of the debt came from) and is stuck on the reasoning that having a job and money does not equal happiness and how it's pointless to get a crappy job working for $7 doing something they hate because they'll never get out of debt anyway. ? they think they've ruined the rest of their life because they'll never be able to have the things they wanted in life like a house etc so why bother ?

right now they live with someone that supports them but the person supporting them doesn't like this, and doesn't treat them very well because of it.

i should also mention they have been really unlucky with jobs in the past. and have done the whole temp agency thing and usually get let go too soon when they do find something they can do, or quit because they can't stand the job. so their job history does not look too good. they get turned down a lot for jobs when they do send resumes and i think they've given up.

don't post if you're just going to say mean stuff. i would like some advice on how you'd handle this if it was someone you cared about ?

[/ QUOTE ]

The person in question sounds very immature, and more likely than not has a substance abuse problem. Furthermore, anyone financially supporting this person, or otherwise making excuses for this person (such as by saying that "they have been really unlucky with jobs"), almost certainly has her own problems with codependency.

[zoomOut]

[ QUOTE ]
...he's either waiting for time to pass him by or hes hoping tommorow never comes.

[/ QUOTE ]


damn that was slightly harsh. Especially that last part there. Could you rephrase it?

[Mat Sklansky]

Pizza delivery drivers and barbacks make about 12.00 per hour. I see help wanted signs at convienence stores in vegas offering 8.50/ hr + benefits.

If a person has enough brainpower to be philosophical and idealisitic, they can make more than 7.00/hr.

Sometimes the best way to deal with someone you care for is to take a very hard line. I went through this with my little brother who is 21 and hasn't left home. He wanted to move in with me and I told him that would be fine, provided he got a job within one week. Somehow that didn't appeal to him and he managed to find a job trimming trees for 15.00/ hr. He hasn't moved out, but it's a start.

[Al P]

You want a place to stay? I'll be your sugar daddy.

[Boris]

It sounds to me like the person is clinically depressed. I would seriously try to make them see a psychiatrist.

[Boris]

If I couldn't find a job and my situation looked hopeless, I would get a dishwashing job at a ski area. Hopefully they would give a season ski pass too. You will still end up middle aged and broke but at least you spend your free time doing something awesome.

[Stuey]

I know several people like this and they all have a few things in common.

1. An enabler.

The person supporting them is a major part of the problem. Sometimes the enabler is trying to gain control or superiority over the person. It is a form of abuse imo. If this were the case I would try to get the person away from the enabler and work to try and rebuild their self-esteem.

Sometimes the enabler is just being to kind to the person. Some people just can't say no and they attract people that will use this weakness. In this case both people are damaging themselves by allowing this. If this was the case I would talk to the enabler and explain the damage they are causing by letting the freeloader live this way and convince them hard love is required here.

2. Depression always sets in if they live like this very long.

Think about it, how can anyone feel good about himself or herself living this way. I have always had a job. And I mean always I worked after school when I was 12. I was a janitor and my friends made fun of me all the time. Yet it never hurt my self-esteem because the amount of positive self confidence you gain can easily over come any negativity others throw at you. Before that I had jobs at home that I never got paid for but had to be done. I grew up on a farm.

To this day some people ask me why I do some of the jobs that I do. People need to understand your job does not define who you are, the way you do the job does.

3. Weed or other drugs this includes booze and smokes and even overeating.

It sounds funny but think about it. The person is depressed and they are self medicating. People try to fix their problems one at a time. First I will lose some weight then maybe quit smoking and then finally I will get out and meet new people. Fix the depression and the other problems sometimes disappear or at least they will be much easier to tackle.

4. Denial

All these people will come up with a million excuses why they have no chance of getting out of their situation. This is because they don't want to take the responsibility for their past and future problems. Much easier to come up with reasons why none of it is their fault.

Sorry if this sounded mean but that was not my intention. Sometimes the truth is just ugly and when someone says it out loud it sounds mean.

The bottom line is in order to build their self-esteem they need to break the cycle. It does not have to be complicated they need to realize where they are and understand why it won't change unless they take responsibility for their future and make the changes required.

People think change takes a long time, I don't, I think it happens in a second. The first second you admit to yourself you are the one in charge of your problems everything changes.

[Vish]

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this. Teach this lazy bum to play poker. It requires no formal education, and he could be making more than 7 bucks an hour pretty quickly. No, he's not "helping people" (God, I hate people who want to help people) but beggars can't be choosy.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
People need to understand your job does not define who you are, the way you do the job does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. This is a very good quote.

[ddollevoet]

Gorie, I know people like this. They are miserable, like to complain, and don't follow through on advice given to them. I think you did your part, but some people don't want to be "fixed."

My guess is that your friend will continue her current pattern until her support gets cut off, then she'll find someone else to support her.

Let her know how you feel and let it go. SHE has to make the change, and she won't until she's ready.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe nobody has mentioned this. Teach this lazy bum to play poker. It requires no formal education, and he could be making more than 7 bucks an hour pretty quickly. No, he's not "helping people" (God, I hate people who want to help people) but beggars can't be choosy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might get flamed for this for daring to question the wisdom of someoen playing poker for a living, but I don't think that poker is the answer for this guy. This guy doesn't sound like he has much drive or self-discipline, plus he seems pretty stubborn so he'd be hard to teach. Less than 10% of poker player are long-term winners, so the odds are already stacked against him being successful. He's already $25,000 in debt, getting into even more debt through poker will make him even more depressed. He needs a traditional job, where he interracts with real people and gets a traditional paycheque.