Waiting 'til the turn w/ top 2

[Ulysses]

2 limpers to me on the button w/ Q8s. I call. SB calls. BB checks.

Flop Q82r

BB bets. This guy makes a play at just about every pot. One limper folds. MP, a very average player, calls. I call. SB folds.

Turn 9(Q82)r

BB bets. MP calls. I raise. BB folds what is at best an 8. MP calls with what is probably Queen-rag suited. Maybe QT/QJ.

River 8(9Q82)

MP checks. I bet. She thinks for a long time and calls.

Any thoughts on not raising this flop w/ top two?

[elysium]

hi ulysses
you must raise the flop, without question. ulysses, i've noticed a slowing down on your part as of late. this will cost you a lot, and you'll feel those lost bets at the worst possible time, when you run into a bad string of cards. usually, you show a lot of good aggression, even when you don't have a big lead. if you hit some bad cards and bet when most others would have folded, ulysses you must fire strongly when you do get your cards and are in the lead. i know, your trips have been getting shot to pieces and the flops are ragged, and everyone is calling you; well keep firing strongly. never let anything deter raising with the leader when you know that your opponents will call.

[mike l.]

"Any thoughts on not raising this flop w/ top two?"

i like it. why not build a nice pot for yourself with what will likely be the best hand by the end?

ive said it before and ill say it again: too many otherwise very good players here are too quick to raise the flop w/ their very good hands when they should wait till the turn and really punish their dumb opponents who will call them w/ close to no chance of cathcing up at the price of 3 big bets. why constantly break out on the flop w/ a raise and warn them you are ahead? (dont answer that; there is no good answer)

[mike l.]

"never let anything deter raising with the leader when you know that your opponents will call."

right. and always be sure to ignore the fact that the bet size doubles from the flop to the turn. after all this game is not about maxing out on how much you earn on the pots you win, it's merely about pounding like crazy when your hand is probably best with no concern for inducing worse hands to keep betting, tying bad players to the pot, charging the most to players who want to keep you honest, etc. nah none of that matters, just raise raise raise that flop.

oh and also always bet the river when you have the nuts.

[bernie]

the pot is small enough for the flop raise to cut the odds. many players get this backwards and think the bigger the pot the more they should bet/raise the flop. which has it's pros, but isnt always the best play.

same with draws on the board. if theyre going to come along anyways, and you think the player will bet the turn, raise the turn and charge a little more depending on what card hits.

however, the plays are interchangeable. both plays have their valid points.

ive advocated the waiting for the turn play, but one should know the spots to pick to really have it maximize the gain. also to minimize the losses. it's one of my favorite 'loose game' concepts that can be used in all types of textures.

b

[andyfox]

"why constantly break out on the flop w/ a raise and warn them you are ahead? (dont answer that; there is no good answer)"

A few years back, when I was moving from the 20-40 to the 30-60 game, a very good player told me I should fear a call on the flop more than a raise. This is one of the biggest differences I found between the two games: in 20-40, you'll find out more often on the flop that you're behind; in 30-60, they'll often wait to lower the boom until the turn, and sometimes that turn raise means a monster and sometimes it's a semi-bluff.

One counter-argument is that is you are frequently not raising on the flop when you're ahead it's harder to get away with the flop-raise when you're behind.

[34TheTruth34]

The percentage of the time that you think the BB will bet the turn is the percentage of the time that I would wait to raise. You said that the BB makes a play at every pot. If he is the type who will check-fold the turn if he actually has nothing, I'd probably raise the flop. However, if he's the type who will charge the pot on every betting round with a BB-style queen (some garbage like Q6 or Q4s), then I'd probably wait to raise the turn almost everytime to get that extra big bet. There are a lot of players who will call the turn raise and river bet just to find out their Q4s is no good.

[elysium]

hi mike
well, the argument of slow-playing a little with what is clearly the leader on the flop has merit in a multi-way pot against 6 or more opponents when, and only when, the board is coordinated. now, i might be wrong, but it appears to me that ulysses may scare out top pair only hands and two lower pair if he bets out or raises in the expensive round. he's only got two opponents. there should be some inducement offered to these two, like a generous pot. but maybe not. maybe he wants to win the pot right there on the turn. if that's the case, well then he should raise the turn. there's merit there especially in this instance in which his opponents have picked up a possible straight or straight draw. a raise may get out the draw now.

this is a game of making correct decisions and applying the correct formulas in their proper setting. this is why i believe that the very best teachers, professors, and hold em educators make this great game even more profitable for those who listen well and follow the instruction correctly. one misapplication at the wrong time and the student is better off knowing nothing at all and just blindly raising. if that's what i did, i stand corrected. if a raise on the turn will do it here, well then i guess he has to raise the turn. but i'm not so sure mike, that's all i'm saying. he might want to raise the flop here.

[DeezNuts]

"One counter-argument is that when you are frequently not raising on the flop when you're ahead it's harder to get away with the flop-raise when you're behind."

I completely agree with this. I had a period of sand-bag/slowplay where I would constantly call the flop and lower the boom on the turn or even the river with a raise/checkraise and I found that, while I would get a lot of checks behind on the turn when I had the worst(but callable) hand, whenever I played fast on the flop, the more observant players would jam the pot, suspecting, usually correctly, that I was making either a free card play or trying to get to the river cheaply.

Since then, I have tried to mix it up, raising more strong hands on the flop when facing who I consider the more observant players, with good results. I have even been able to fastplay quads on the flop and get multiple decent-playing callers the whole way.

DN

[Rick Nebiolo]

i tend to raise the flop with top two pair against default opponents but you said this BB makes a lot of plays at the pot. This means his flop bets often will be weak so you won't get the reraises you should want with top two pair. Against this guy I'd tend to wait a round.

~ rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

actually you want follow on turn bets from the big blind with this rainbow flop. you might not get them after the flop action unless the BB has a LOT of follow through . that would favor the flop raise.

also agree with andy fox's points above regarding the flop versus turn raise and what to fear.

~ rick

[Diplomat]

Hey Elysium,

as usual, I disagree with most of what you have said :-P. But I do think you make a good point about raising the flop in an effort to tie players into the hand. Against good players, I'd agree with you and raise the flop, because a flop raise can, quite literally, mean anything (especially at medium limits). I think it is a mistake to not raise good hands on the flop against good players, and the opposite for poor players (with lots of exceptions, of course).

But I think what Mike wanted to do here was to get the BB -- likely a bluffer -- to bet again on the turn. A flop raise might lead to a check-fold by the bluffer on the turn, and Mike would loose a signifigant number of bets.

Oh, and only slowplay in pots with six or more contenders for the pot, and only if the board is highly coordinated? I see this as a reason to do the opposite.

-Diplomat

[bernie]

"Oh, and only slowplay in pots with six or more contenders for the pot, and only if the board is highly coordinated? I see this as a reason to do the opposite"

there are valid reasons for waiting in this instance. youre not protecting anything, and many players will have the odds to call. and another bet gives them odds to call the turn bet correctly. and you havent charged the good draws as much as you could. especially if you know the guy will bet out again on the turn.

but if your in with players who may fold to your raise after calling 1 bet already and wont call 1 more, hence, making a mistake folding, then by all means.

there are valid points both ways.

NOTE: i said there were valid points BOTH ways

b

[elysium]

hey diplomat
slow-playing a set or even top two when the deal isn't raised, 6 or more are in the hand, and the board is double coordinated may work diplomat. i can see keeping the gut shots in and hitting the solid draws for two bets on the turn. if the deal is raised, or if you are raised on the flop, then you must bet strongly. the thing here is that now the gut-shots would be correct to call. but ohhhh....., maybe not diplomat.

[Diplomat]

Hey E,

I think what you are saying here -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- is to wait to raise on an expensive street if a blank hits, thereby saving bets if a card that makes a gutshot peels off. Is that right?

If so it might make sense, but I would not call it a slowplay.

Thanks for the clarification, although I think I'm still a bit confused.

-Diplomat

[MrGo]

I like your play. In most cases, I always check/call on flop with top two...then fire away at the turn. Only time I raise on the flop is if a flush/straight draw is out there...make it expensive for them to stay.

[MrGo]

If you fire away all the time, you will not make any money. Deceit is a must.