anyone else pissed off at that rapper for saying bush doesnt care.....

about a certain group of people... That really pissed me off, how could he say something like that on national TV. He was the rapper standing next to Mike Myers.

[playersare]

oh so you know Mike Myers by name but the other guy is just "the rapper". how telling.

yea thats right got a problem with it?

Rick

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
oh so you know Mike Myers by name but the other guy is just "the rapper". how telling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am told that the "rapper" was Kanye West.

OK Kanye West, anyway, my point is... How does everyone feel about what he said?

PS Anyone else here from Denver?

Rick

[B Dids]

I find it repugnant when people post in the wrong forum.

(and when people actually say things that are true instead of reading bullshit off of a telepromter, all of that honesty apalled me and made me cry)

On the real, George Bush doesn't care about black people or any other group of people that won't help him get another republican elected in 2008.

[arod4276]

Cant get very mad when its very true

[jdl22]

I'm more upset that what the guy said is correct.

[yvesaint]

Yeah, I'm really pissed at what that guy said!! [censored] his opinion!!

[Niediam]

What he said is clearly true... without even considering anything relating to the Katrina disaster. If you don't think so then go live in any major city's ghetto for a year and then lets talk.

[BottlesOf]

I'm more pissed that you don't know his name. I'm not kidding.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
What he said is clearly true... without even considering anything relating to the Katrina disaster. If you don't think so then go live in any major city's ghetto for a year and then lets talk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right, Bush created ghettos.

[Dave Mac]

shut up, you are a moron.
dave

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
PS Anyone else here from Denver?

[/ QUOTE ]
Comic gold.

[Edge34]

1) I was pissed about how Kanye went off. Posted about it in the OOT thread that happened all of 3 days ago or something....not pissed because he voiced his opinion, but pissed about the time and place. That was neither.

2) For those who say, "he's right"...first, take it to Politics. Second...no, he's not. Not in the least.

[benkahuna]

I like how you continue a political discussion and then make sure you get in the last word, but tell others to move it elsewhere. What amazingly clever rhetorical technique!

Name one single thing that Bush has done for the Black community.

There are a number of things about Bush that are debateable. As for his record related to the black community, his record speaks for himself and is completely unambiguous.

[Edge34]

I'mnot going to continue it here, but I'd like you to tell me one thing he's done specifically AGAINST the black community. In the politics forum. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Niediam]

What a rediculous statement. I never said nor implied that the ghettos were created by Bush.

[benkahuna]

He made a straw man argument because it's easier than addressing your comment.

[MicroBob]

I think one can make a fair guess as to what would have happened if a similar tragedy struck a bunch of rich, white people somewhere.

Would thousands of people be left to suffer (and die) without any food and wallow in their own feces (like those who were struggling at NO conv-ctr) if they were rich and white??
There was nobody showing up to help them for several freaking days. They were just stuck there dying and piling bodies up in the freezer.

If it was a bunch of rich, white people one might guess there would be a higher likelihood that 10,000 paratroopers would descend upon the place with care-packages and medical supplies.


It is difficult to comprehend the enormity of how badly this whole thing was fouled-up.
Prior to this happening like it did I would NEVER have thought something like this was possible in the richest country in the world.

I know it's a huge area with a LOT of people that were in trouble and that the flood-waters everywhere made travel VERY difficult....but the situation WAS controllable if there hadn't been such an extraordinary delay in getting various forces down there.
It's truly mind-boggling...and I find the delayed response by our govt to people in need to be almost as sickening as the actual loss of roughly 10k lives in this disaster.

[dibbs]

[ QUOTE ]
about a certain group of people... That really pissed me off, how could he say something like that on national TV. He was the rapper standing next to Mike Myers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Politics forum, yo. Complaining about statements you view as ignorant may be solidified by not being ignorant about the people who actually said them, btw.

[WDC]

Pissed me off. Becuase he forgot to mention that Busch doesn't care about brown people or yellow people or white people for the most part.

[xadrez]

Nope, Im actually going to buy his new album as opposed to downloading it for free because of what he said!

[CCovington]

I guess the government (Bush) handing out free $2,000 debit cards is nothing right?

I guess you already know that the day after the Hurricane Bush was in Louisiana with a plan for the federal government to step in and start cleaning up this mess but was told by the Louisiana governor that they would need 24 hours to "think about it."

No matter how you feel about it, the man picked a bad time and place to say what he did.

[tdarko]

who gives a [censored] if FirstBase didn't know Kanye's name? i am sick of every [censored]' celebrity using their celebrity as a platform to speak their ill advised mind. it wasn't the time or the place.

when things go wrong you support your people, sure you can hate bush or whoever else you think is the problem /images/graemlins/smirk.gif but that doesnt really matter when it's going down, what matter's is the problem at hand and helping the people. just like during war everyone is quick to judge a president rather than support our troops and pray for them to come home safely. after the war you can say whatever the [censored] you want, until then you are an american and you support them and shut the [censored] up.

kanye is a moron and doesn't know [censored]. flame me if you want but are we really going to listen to kanye's words? come on, he is a musical mastermind that comes up with sick beats and p diddy lyrics.

anyway, i wish people would just stop using their celebrity status to show how [censored] stupid they really are.

[xadrez]

Keep marching lock-step buddy.

[ghostwriter]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the government (Bush) handing out free $2,000 debit cards is nothing right?

I guess you already know that the day after the Hurricane Bush was in Louisiana with a plan for the federal government to step in and start cleaning up this mess but was told by the Louisiana governor that they would need 24 hours to "think about it."

No matter how you feel about it, the man picked a bad time and place to say what he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of propaganda is this? He's the President. I'll be damned if I'm the president and I tell somebody to do something and they tell me, "I'll think about it."

[B Dids]

The best thing about this is that it's become a great metric that I can use to judge people.

If they actually got worked up by it, there's a high likelyhood that they're an idiot.

If they just laughed, agree or disagree, then they're probably ok even if their politics suck.

[FrankStallone]

Bush doesn't care about poor people (that much).. and I would have listened to Kanye West but I happen to see all of his videos, and he makes it clear to make one type of person the villin in all but one or two of his racist videos. So I tune him out and try to remember that not all people are like him. I do the same with Bush. The local government lack of precautionary measures as well as Femas reaction time made it so much worse. generators on the first floors of hospitals??? No set high points or emergency water and food rations for the masses in case of the Enevitable flood that has been forcasted for years in a city well below sea level.

[meow_meow]

[ QUOTE ]
who gives a [censored] if FirstBase didn't know Kanye's name? i am sick of every [censored]' celebrity using their celebrity as a platform to speak their ill advised mind. it wasn't the time or the place.

when things go wrong you support your people, sure you can hate bush or whoever else you think is the problem /images/graemlins/smirk.gif but that doesnt really matter when it's going down, what matter's is the problem at hand and helping the people. just like during war everyone is quick to judge a president rather than support our troops and pray for them to come home safely. after the war you can say whatever the [censored] you want, until then you are an american and you support them and shut the [censored] up.

kanye is a moron and doesn't know [censored]. flame me if you want but are we really going to listen to kanye's words? come on, he is a musical mastermind that comes up with sick beats and p diddy lyrics.

anyway, i wish people would just stop using their celebrity status to show how [censored] stupid they really are.

[/ QUOTE ]

This kind of "my country, right or wrong" attitude disturbs me immensely.

[ QUOTE ]
He made a straw man argument because it's easier than addressing your comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. I think his point was that ghettos / black poverty were problems before Bush. BTW, I don't think Bush is racist at all. He put two African Amer. in high positions in his administration in Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell. I do think however, that the federal response to the Hurricane and its victims was deplorable and Bush deserves some blame for that, but I don't think his motives were racist. Obviously, Kanye West was speaking out of pain and frustration.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess the government (Bush) handing out free $2,000 debit cards is nothing right?

I guess you already know that the day after the Hurricane Bush was in Louisiana with a plan for the federal government to step in and start cleaning up this mess but was told by the Louisiana governor that they would need 24 hours to "think about it."

No matter how you feel about it, the man picked a bad time and place to say what he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of propaganda is this? He's the President. I'll be damned if I'm the president and I tell somebody to do something and they tell me, "I'll think about it."

[/ QUOTE ]

Give Bush a break. He probably just didn't realize that Louisiana is one of our 50 states.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
What a rediculous statement. I never said nor implied that the ghettos were created by Bush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said, if you disagree with the fact that bush doesn't care about blacks go live in a ghetto for a year and then lets talk. Ghettos have been bad to live in long before Bush was ever president and have been around in some form for long before this country was even created. They are a fact of life. Yet your statement very strongly implies that Bush is somehow responsible for the bad living conditions in the ghetto. Therefore my statement was not ridiculous in any way.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]


Give Bush a break. He probably just didn't realize that Louisiana is one of our 50 states.

[/ QUOTE ]

NH

[benkahuna]

Bush, as the chief executive of the US is ultimately responsible for how federal agencies carry out their duties. The buck stops there. The man takes zero responsibility for anything bad that happens, yet he's the most powerful person in the country--hardly seems fair.

FEMA didn't think that the levee would break (despite serious warnings from engineers), didn't have disaster relief efforts in position before the hurricane (despite many days warning), didn't consider the need to evacuate tens of thousands of people that were essentially immobile, and could generally be regarded as incompetent in the relief effort. A large group of Canadians arrived to help before the major part of US operations made it to the Gulf Coast. That's disgraceful.

Due to budgetary and strategic decision-making, considerably smaller amounts of money went to FEMA to work on disaster relief, much more proportionally went toward fighting terrorist efforts. Having final veto power essentially put Bush in charge of the budget.

This was a [censored] up of colossal proportions and there is a reason there's going to be a congressional inquiry into the matter--and it's not standard policy for Congress to just investigate any old thing, particularly when the legislative branch is run by the same party as the executive (who blew the relief efforts). There's a reason the governor of Louisana was essentially furious with Bush for a time. Probably only stopped being so mad when Bush told her she needed to calm the [censored] down if she wanted any help.


Perhaps the lamest, most short-sighted thing here was to build a large city in an area frequently hit by hurricanes below sea level and dependent upon man made structures to remain above water and not expect disaster to eventually strike.

2000 debit cards is a token gesture at best to people that have lost everything they have, including their jobs.

And when you're floating face down in those filthy waters, dead, 2000 bucks isn't even going to afford you a nice funeral.

[Niediam]

Saying that Bush created ghettos is certainly different from saying Bush is responsible for the living conditions in ghettos which is again different from saying that Bush could take various steps such as inproving the school, making it hard to obtain firearms, improving the conditions of run down houses, etc (which he obviously hasn't)to improve these ghettos.

That's quite the runon sentense I have there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[benkahuna]

That's Bush's fault. He's been a terrible example for good grammar, at least in unedited pubhlic appearances.

[Quicksilvre]

Not pissed off, but Kanye probably picked a bad spot here.

The "Bush doesn't care about black people" thing is debatable. On one hand, the post-hurricane efforts were terribly inadequate, but I think you have to spread blame between the city, the state, and the Feds. Amongst the Feds, the blame has to be spread between Bush and FEMA. So, he can take a part of a part of the blame, but not all of it.

I'd agree with him more if he said that FEMA and the Louisiana folks didn't care about black folks either...but that's too simplistic. I think the poor part contributed to the indifference than the race part. Given that racism contributes to poverty, I think's it's spot on to say racism indirectly contributed to the poor response, but a direct effect is more tedious to prove.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
who gives a [censored] if FirstBase didn't know Kanye's name? i am sick of every [censored]' celebrity using their celebrity as a platform to speak their ill advised mind. it wasn't the time or the place.

when things go wrong you support your people, sure you can hate bush or whoever else you think is the problem /images/graemlins/smirk.gif but that doesnt really matter when it's going down, what matter's is the problem at hand and helping the people. just like during war everyone is quick to judge a president rather than support our troops and pray for them to come home safely. after the war you can say whatever the [censored] you want, until then you are an american and you support them and shut the [censored] up.

kanye is a moron and doesn't know [censored]. flame me if you want but are we really going to listen to kanye's words? come on, he is a musical mastermind that comes up with sick beats and p diddy lyrics.

anyway, i wish people would just stop using their celebrity status to show how [censored] stupid they really are.

[/ QUOTE ]

This kind of "my country, right or wrong" attitude disturbs me immensely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. This kind of blind following of authority nauseates me.

[Dan Mezick]

Or, maybe he notices that Louisiana has a distinctly French heritage.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
Or, maybe he notices that Louisiana has a distinctly freedom heritage.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[montechristo]

1)yes he is right

2)come on if Kanye doesn't TAKE 15 seconds to voice his opinion on live TV you will never hear it.

3)he is right.

[4_2_it]

Having lived in Florida most of my life I would like to set some of the facts straight (BTW -I am not a Bush apologist by a long shot and Kanye can say whatever he wants since we still live in America).

1) Local authorities are responsible for hurricane planning (i.e. evacuations, food, shelters, everything). Anyone who has ever lived in a hurricane region sees the following every June:
-- umpteen TV specials on hurricane preparedness,
-- newspaper special sections on shelter locations, how to prepare and what to do
-- most grocery stores and Home Depot locations have big hurricane guides that list items you can buy to be prepared and safety tips on how to secure your home before evacuating

2) Every time we had a hurricane watch or warning there every time there was an evacuation (I went through three) you were told to bring enough food and water for several days. If you were going to ride it out, then you be prepared to be self-sufficient for a week. There were always number sto call if you needed assistance and police usually came through each neighborhood with bullhorns letting everyone know they needed to get out.

3) After the storm, the governor of Florida would declare an area a disaster and then have to ask for federal assistance for whatever the Florida National Guard couldn't handle.

4) Federal officials (FEMA) come in to help those impacted by the storm. From my experience, their jobs mostly consisted of getting everything back to normal and not search and rescue or looter control. That was usually handled by the National Guard and local law enforcement.

Now to my point, I understand that many of victims could not get out on their own, but the blame for this is first on the local officials in NO, then on state officials for not getting the National Guard in there and finally on federal officials for not being ready with search and rescue ops. From what I have read, the City of NO had a sound evacuation plan, but never put it into place, which in my opinion is criminal.

Frankly, I would have had a huge problem if Bush, on the day after the hurricane, declared that he was in charge and disregarded the powers of the state and local governments. This goes against every principle this nation was founded upon. That is why I cannot give the lion's share of the blame to Bush and his cronies. There are plenty of other things to blame him for.

The people of Louisiana now (sadly) realize they have elected imcompotents who failed them in the worst way possible. That is one lesson the rest of us should take away from this.

There is plenty of blame to pass around.

I am curious to hear from those who went through Charley and Andrew to see if their experience was similar to mine.

[kagame]

name the last time anyone had the balls to deviate from a script like this

the best thing for our country right now is as much free speech as possible

its the freaking PRESS! freedom of the press!

good grief

are we fascist yet? no?

how about now?

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
Now to my point, I understand that many of victims could not get out on their own, but the blame for this is first on the local officials in NO, then on state officials for not getting the National Guard in there and finally on federal officials for not being ready with search and rescue ops.

[/ QUOTE ]

I live outside the hurricane zone, but that's how I always figured it went.

[ QUOTE ]
That is why I cannot give the lion's share of the blame to Bush and his cronies. There are plenty of other things to blame him for [...] There is plenty of blame to pass around.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a shame Bush gets so much blame for the Katrina disaster; there are much bigger things that can be pinned more absolutely to him.

[Quicksilvre]

Not the same thing. The question was whether Kanye pissed anyone off, not whether the TV feed should have been cut.

(It shouldn't have been, even though I think Kanye picked a bad spot.)

[Seth Money]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the government (Bush) handing out free $2,000 debit cards is nothing right?

I guess you already know that the day after the Hurricane Bush was in Louisiana with a plan for the federal government to step in and start cleaning up this mess but was told by the Louisiana governor that they would need 24 hours to "think about it."

No matter how you feel about it, the man picked a bad time and place to say what he did.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a joke, right? $2,000 dollars? $2,000 dollars? These people are dying left and right, there houses are gone, they don't have clean socks or shoes to put on and the best our own government can do is $2,000 dollars?

This is supposed to be the greatest country in the world and you know who is doing most of the work to get these people back on there feet? American citizens like you and me, not the government. Hell I read that a Costa Rican sportsbook hundreds and hundreds of miles away bought a truck in america and got water, food, and clothing to NO faster then our own government. Its a sad day in America. We have telethons asking for support but our own government doesnt even go to big business, corporations and say hey we'll give you guys tax breaks if you donate what you can down there. All they need to do is go to Avian, Walmart, Fruit of a loom, and any food companies and offer that and this [censored] would be good, but instead its coming out of our pockets (which i dont mind) but its the governments responsibility to take care of our own.

So in response to what Kanye said, yeah I'm from Chicago, I'm white, and I enjoy his music, and support people from where I am but was it bad timing? yeah, was it wrong? no. And most importantly was it true? Definetely.

Seth

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]

This is a joke, right? $2,000 dollars? $2,000 dollars? These people are dying left and right, there houses are gone, they don't have clean socks or shoes to put on and the best our own government can do is $2,000 dollars?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember the victims of Hurricanes Hugo, Andrew or Charley (all major storms where thousands lost everything) getting $2,000 debit cards, so don't demean it. It is obviously a stop gap to allow people to buy food, water, shelter until all the red tape is untangled. These people will most likely get temporary housing, food stamps and other gov't assistance while they get back on their feet. There are people still living in trailers in Punta Gorda, Florida from when Charley destroyed their homes last year.

BTW - I don't disagree with the rest of your rant.

[JoeC]

[quote
2)come on if Kanye doesn't TAKE 15 seconds to voice his opinion on live TV you will never hear it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I was very happy I got the opportunity to hear Kanye West's political opinions on TV. He's obviously qualified to talk on the matter, isn't he? America must hear his voice!

[TRBNGR]

[ QUOTE ]

On the real, George Bush doesn't care about black people or any other group of people that won't help him get another republican elected in 2008.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or unless he can make some change off of it...

[GeniusToad]

Condie Rice and Colon Powell are about as familiar with the struggle of poor blacks as Paris Hilton. Besides, if you were Republican and you had a reputation for giving a rat's patoot about minorities wouldn't you scatter a few around the cabinet to deflect criticism? Don't beat up Bush too much though, he doesn't know any better. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; Rove.

Kanye for President

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]


Yes, I was very happy I got the opportunity to hear Kanye West's political opinions on TV. He's obviously qualified to talk on the matter, isn't he? America must hear his voice!

[/ QUOTE ]

Kanye is well known as one of the most political rappers out there. (Dead Prez and Immortal Technique are two other strong examples). He's an outspoken advocate for issues facing the Black community.

By blowing off his opinion, you're pretty much blowing off the concerns and complaints of the Black community at large. Just because he's a celeb doesn't mean he's an uninformed moron.

Of course, a solid 1 minute of googling could have given you the same information, so I assume making informed commentary isn't worth your time.

[B Dids]

lol.

Kanye isn't a political rapper at all. He has a few songs where he likes to pretend, but comparing him to IT or Dead Prez is nonsense.

[benkahuna]

It's my wigger roommate's fault. He told me Kanye was way political so had to believe him since he is into the mainstream rap scene. Whereas, I actually know IT and Dead Prez are because I listen to them. Will have to ask him more about it, maybe he had some reason for saying that other than a few songs.

[JoeC]

[ QUOTE ]

He's an outspoken advocate for issues facing the Black community.

By blowing off his opinion, you're pretty much blowing off the concerns and complaints of the Black community at large.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's the race card I was looking for! To make this a truly worthwhile debate, all you have to do now is to make a Hitler reference, and perhaps a veiled George Orwell crack wouldn't hurt either.

Seriously, Kanye being black has nothing to do with me not listening to him. There are certainly black leaders I would listen to if they made this statement. Even shock artists like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have MUCH more credibility than Kanye West in my book, because they at least have made a career out of political activism.

West, on the other hand, got famous by performing raps such as "Now all the girls pass the weed to your motherfucking man / And if you're losing your high, then smoke again", and then tries his hand at activism when the cameras are rolling.

By the way, when you give me faulty information (from your wigger roommate?), and then tell me I should have googled it in an insulting tone, it makes you look foolish.

[B Dids]

So you listen to IT and DP but Kanye is to mainstream for you?

Kanye is better than both of those guys by a long shot, and this is coming from a guy who has been listening to Atmosphere's new album for 3 days straight.

[21times20]

if you were more culturally diverse in your musical tastes you'd realize that people already are making veiled references to george orwell

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Yes, I was very happy I got the opportunity to hear Kanye West's political opinions on TV. He's obviously qualified to talk on the matter, isn't he? America must hear his voice!

[/ QUOTE ]

Kanye is well known as one of the most political rappers out there. (Dead Prez and Immortal Technique are two other strong examples). He's an outspoken advocate for issues facing the Black community.

By blowing off his opinion, you're pretty much blowing off the concerns and complaints of the Black community at large. Just because he's a celeb doesn't mean he's an uninformed moron.

Of course, a solid 1 minute of googling could have given you the same information, so I assume making informed commentary isn't worth your time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do a little research into Kanye's life and tell me what part of the struggle he went through...

Was it his professor mother? His minister father? The multiple degrees he could have earned had he not dropped out of college? The work Jay-Z gave him as a producer, then as a rapper that no other label would take?

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, a solid 1 minute of googling could have given you the same information, so I assume making informed commentary isn't worth your time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
Do a little research into Kanye's life and tell me what part of the struggle he went through...

Was it his professor mother? His minister father? The multiple degrees he could have earned had he not dropped out of college? The work Jay-Z gave him as a producer, then as a rapper that no other label would take?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that I at no point mentioned a personal struggle in this part would make your argument a straw man argument, wouldn't it?

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
So you listen to IT and DP but Kanye is to mainstream for you?

Kanye is better than both of those guys by a long shot, and this is coming from a guy who has been listening to Atmosphere's new album for 3 days straight.

[/ QUOTE ]


It really all depends on what you're looking for now, doesn't it?
As for mainstream, when's the last time IT or Dead Prez appeared on an NBC-produced, nationally-televised special?
I think you can argue that Dead Prez is fairly mainstream given greater media coverage and a Sony album but IT, cmon.

Honestly, it's not all that important to me who's what. If you say Kanye is better, I'll give him a try. Was just trying to explain I'm not that plugged in to hip hop and rap that gets the most exposure that my roommate is. Tried to describe the difference further and erred using Dead Prez as an example...

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do a little research into Kanye's life and tell me what part of the struggle he went through...

Was it his professor mother? His minister father? The multiple degrees he could have earned had he not dropped out of college? The work Jay-Z gave him as a producer, then as a rapper that no other label would take?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that I at no point mentioned a personal struggle in this part would make your argument a straw man argument, wouldn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You said:

[ QUOTE ]

By blowing off his opinion, you're pretty much blowing off the concerns and complaints of the Black community at large

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, maybe its just me, but when I hear all the talk about the Hurricane victims, it always comes down to one thing. Poor people.

Tell me how the concerns of the poor black community ANYWHERE are something Kanye is an expert in.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
There's the race card I was looking for! To make this a truly worthwhile debate, all you have to do now is to make a Hitler reference, and perhaps a veiled George Orwell crack wouldn't hurt either.

Seriously, Kanye being black has nothing to do with me not listening to him. There are certainly black leaders I would listen to if they made this statement. Even shock artists like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have MUCH more credibility than Kanye West in my book, because they at least have made a career out of political activism.

West, on the other hand, got famous by performing raps such as "Now all the girls pass the weed to your motherfucking man / And if you're losing your high, then smoke again", and then tries his hand at activism when the cameras are rolling.

By the way, when you give me faulty information (from your wigger roommate?), and then tell me I should have googled it in an insulting tone, it makes you look foolish.

[/ QUOTE ]


Kanye West has concerns representative of the Black community. I don't really care what his skin color is. And I'm not going to engage in some rhetorical nonsense and imply you're a racist or a fascist if you blow off his concerns. Deciding who has credibility or not is obviously a personal decision.

You're given some reasons for blowing off his concerns. I don't think your reasons are terrible, but I think you're being awfully flippant about someone whose motives you are not aware of and not considering that he might both have a decent point and actually know something of what he's discussing.

It doesn't make you a racist or a fascist (and I'm not much for name-calling or casting aspersions), but it shows that you find it easy to attack someone's opinion whom you deem unqualified.

It looks like I overvalued my roommate's opinion in this case and it did make me look foolish. I realized that might be a risk to what I had to say and it's not one I often take. I'm still interested in what he has to say about it since I've never known him to talk out of his arse and he's plugged into to hip hop/rap culture. We'll see how "faulty" this information is. I bet he knows something that you don't...

Maybe this was Kanye's political awakening, and even if it's not genuine, his influence could still be positive. That's afterthought and not part of our argument/discussion, btw.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
I'mnot going to continue it here, but I'd like you to tell me one thing he's done specifically AGAINST the black community. In the politics forum. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you have to make specific malicious actions towards a group to not care about them? that sounds more like "caring" to me.

rj

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, maybe its just me, but when I hear all the talk about the Hurricane victims, it always comes down to one thing. Poor people.

Tell me how the concerns of the poor black community ANYWHERE are something Kanye is an expert in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess only experts can have worthwhile opinions? Some things are so damn obvious you'd almost have to be blind to form an incorrect opinion. If you're going to take the rhetorical tact that without having experience closely related to something or "expert" status, one cannot form a valid opinion, unless you are aware of the totality of Kanye's experience or are somehow an "expert" about him, you can't competently discuss what he may or may not be aware of. I find that patently absurd.

It looks like I'm going to be waiting a very long time for a strong argument that Kanye West can't speak for the Black community. If their concern (which is that Bush doesn't give a [censored]) comes out of his mouth it's suddenly not their concern? Does the limited information people have about his background mean he doesn't have enough information to have accurately expressed the concerns of a community?

This just in:

According to wigger roommate, sociopolitical concerns pervade his music, his creative work that he gives a damn about enough to produce something original, yet when he talks about it publicly it's like he suddenly realized politics existed. Said roommate was completely unsurprised by his public comments, saying they were entirely consistent w/ his work and it sounds like, what he cares about.

[KaneKungFu123]

2k might not be alot, but what do you want them to do? hand out 20k?

come on.

[Seth Money]

First off coming from the guy that has publicly let known he wants to re-nounce his citizenship, I don't think you have room to speak much here.

The United State government should be doing more then they are, I never once mentioned that they should be giving them more money but they should be doing other things to get them the things that they need to live and thats by calling out every major corporation that can help and offering tax breaks or just plain footing the bill for whatever these people need. They should be buidling government housing in Houston or wherever the majority of these people are now calling home. The stadium is a short term solution to a long term problem. You have to understand that the greater New orleans area will be out of service for 6+ months easy, no economy except for re consturction and that the majority of these people are the poorest of the poor in our country.

So forgive me for ranting KaneKungFu but from a person that cares about my fellow countrymen and loves this country our representatives need to do more for the people that don't have a voice to be heard.

And thats where I agree with Mr. West, the poor don't have equal representation even Pre-Katrina, we can't turn our back on them now, they need us whether they are white,black,brown, yellow or any other color. There's always more to be done but in this instance President Bush isn't doing things right and he hasn't done nearly enough of what he should.

(Before the bashing comes about Bush hating, I will say that I have no party affiliation)

Seth

[dibbs]

Did "how much fun we're having" or whatever it's called drop already? I heard mid september but havent checked in a while.

[benkahuna]

Saying someone talking about renouncing their citizenship does not have any right to criticize his country is silly. I think people that incensed by a country very likely have strong criticisms worth considering. I think foreign nationals may have strong criticisms worth considering. But, if your goal is to flippantly cast aside the opinions of people that might disagree with you, it's a great approach. Ron Kovic would love you.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[quote
2)come on if Kanye doesn't TAKE 15 seconds to voice his opinion on live TV you will never hear it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I was very happy I got the opportunity to hear Kanye West's political opinions on TV. He's obviously qualified to talk on the matter, isn't he? America must hear his voice!

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, you are not familiar with what "free speech" means. Since when did people have to be "qualified" to speak their opinions?

FirstBase = Racist old man

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
this is coming from a guy who has been listening to Atmosphere's new album for 3 days straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. That's a close decision, but I think if you play well postflop it's still +EV.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
Condie Rice and Colon Powell are about as familiar with the struggle of poor blacks as Paris Hilton. Besides, if you were Republican and you had a reputation for giving a rat's patoot about minorities wouldn't you scatter a few around the cabinet to deflect criticism? Don't beat up Bush too much though, he doesn't know any better. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; Rove.

Kanye for President

[/ QUOTE ]
Your post gets my vote as the dumbest post ever made on 2+2....by far!

First, you have no [censored] clue what you're talking about when it comes to Condi and Powell. Both come from poor backgrounds. Take even a cursory look at either one's biography. Comparing them to Paris Hilton is ludicrous.

Second, what would you have said if Bush had placed no blacks in his administration? Given your open hatred of Bush (let me guess, you're a partisan Democrat who blindly hates any Republican, right?), you'd surely say that it was proof that Bush is racist. So, no black in administration = Bush racist. And blacks in administration = Bush racist too. Why don't you just say that Michael Moore or whatever loonie you worship told you that Bush is racist regardless of what he does and be done with it?

Finally, the thing with Rove is a wonderful conspiracy theory. Maybe you should write a book about it some day.

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Condie Rice and Colon Powell are about as familiar with the struggle of poor blacks as Paris Hilton. Besides, if you were Republican and you had a reputation for giving a rat's patoot about minorities wouldn't you scatter a few around the cabinet to deflect criticism? Don't beat up Bush too much though, he doesn't know any better. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; Rove.

Kanye for President

[/ QUOTE ]
Your post gets my vote as the dumbest post ever made on 2+2....by far!

First, you have no [censored] clue what you're talking about when it comes to Condi and Powell. Both come from poor backgrounds. Take even a cursory look at either one's biography. Comparing them to Paris Hilton is ludicrous.

Second, what would you have said if Bush had placed no blacks in his administration? Given your open hatred of Bush (let me guess, you're a partisan Democrat who blindly hates any Republican, right?), you'd surely say that it was proof that Bush is racist. So, no black in administration = Bush racist. And blacks in administration = Bush racist too. Why don't you just say that Michael Moore or whatever loonie you worship told you that Bush is racist regardless of what he does and be done with it?

Finally, the thing with Rove is a wonderful conspiracy theory. Maybe you should write a book about it some day.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with you completely that the poster you are responding to is a complete idiot and is likely ignorant of the backgrounds of Rice, Powell, and West I am pretty certain that Condoleezza Rice's family was not poor but more properly described as middle class. Her father was a minister and guideance counselor in Birmingham when she was growing up and her mother taught music. They were friends, from what I've read, with some of the wealthier black families in Birmingham. I grew up in Tuscaloosa around the same time she lived in Birmingham so I think I have a pretty good idea of the type of conditions she grew up in. To say her upbringing and background is in any way similar to that of Paris Hilton is just about the most laughable and moronic thing I think I've ever read here on 2+2 and check my reged date.

[LittleOldLady]

OK, my house and car and every single thing I own except a few changes of clothing that fit in a small carry-on suitcase are currently lying at the bottom of many feet of disgustingly contaminated water, so I am in a position to say a few things on the subject.

Judging from his several early statements, the main thing that Bush cared about was the Colonial pipeline, the oil refineries, and Port Fouchon, the only place in the country where supertankers can unload. At least that's all he talked about early on. This at a time when many people were on their roofs desperate to be rescued. We in Louisiana knew very well about the importance of these installations to the country as a whole. That's why the Louisiana congressional delegation begged repeatedly for funds to combat coastal erosion--a plan which the Bush administration did not support. In fact, several days after the storm, Bush was asked if he now supports coastal erosion abatement, to which he answered that the problem was with the levees. The interviewer had to explain to him the role that coastal erosion played in the destruction of New Orleans and surrounding areas. But, shortly after the 17th Street Canal levee broke, Bush said, with his My Little Goat expression on his face, "Who knew the levees would break?" In Louisiana we ALL knew the levees would break. My conclusion: Bush was not knowledgeable about the problems posed by coastal erosion and an inadequate levee system, despite the bills introduced annually to address these problems, and really only cared about the effect of the storm on the oil and gas industry.

As far as what Kanye West said, there is no evidence that Bush cared about any people impacted by the storm until it became clear that it was political necessary to be seen to care.

The media with the help of Jesse Jackson made this into a race story. It isn't and wasn't. As Mayor Nagin, a creole of color himself, put it, it is a class story, not a race story. People of means who had a car in good condition and money for gas, hotels, and restaurant meals made it out of the city and the neighboring parishes in good order. They filled every hotel room from Louisiana to Tennessee and lots of homes owned by friends and family. This included blacks, whites, Asians, hispanics, and every other type of person in a cosmopolitan port city. People who could not drive out of the city and surrounding areas (the poor, the elderly, the disabled) stayed out of necessity. Many who could get out stayed by choice--because of their pets, because their neighborhood survived Betsy and Camille, and because they wished to guard their property from looters. Some of these people (mainly the poor, the elderly, and the disabled) went to the Superdome which was first opened as a specialneeds shelter for the disabled and then opened as a shelter of last resort for the general public. These people were predominantly poor and black, and the media concentrated on them because (a) the Superdome was physically accessible to the media and (b) because the journalists decided this was a race story. Down the street in the Convention Center it was a different story. The people packed in there included both an assortment of poor, elderly, and disabled New Orleanians and the tourists who were forced to leave the hotels. Most of the tourists were more or less well-to-do and white, and they were the ones at the mercy of the raping and pillaging. White, black, rich, poor, they all suffered together.

Now let's take St. Bernard Parish, the story you didn't see. St. Bernard Parish is almost entirely populated by working-class whites. To be honest, it is not a place that welcomes black residents, although there are a few black hamlets in lower St. Bernard. St. Bernard Parish was also 100% under water. Not a single St. Bernard resident has a home to go back to. Did you see on tv the throngs of working-class whites rescued by boat and brought to the Chalmette slip where they waited in vain for days to be brought out and where some died? The government was no more in a hurry to bring them out than they were to evacuate those in the Dome. But you didn't see that because (a) the complete inundation of St. Bernard precluded the camera crews from getting in and (b) the "story" was about poor blacks being neglected, not about working-class whites in similar straits.

New Orleans is a poor city and a majority African-American city. Therefore the majority of the people left in the city were poor blacks. The affected area as a whole is white-majority and working-to-middle class, so in fact more white working class people were stuck in destroyed homes with no power, food, or water than were poor blacks. Many of the houses owned by white people were destroyed by wind and falling trees,and the people in them were stranded without supplies because the roads were blocked by downed trees and powerlines. See, for example, Slidell, a well-to-do bedroom community east of the city which took the brunt of the winds. I can assure you that the government did not break its back rushing to save the white, upper-middle class Slidellians. Of course, many Slidell residents left, but those who stayed were in a fix....

As far as there being a plan that somehow local government failed to carry out, there was no such plan ever adopted. There were a number of plans propsoed on paper, but none was feasible, and hence none was adopted. The only exception to this was the contraflow traffic plan worked out after the horrible Ivan gridlock of last summer. This plan, which converts all interstate lanes to one-way out of the city and which includes a staged evacuation starting with lower Jefferson, St. Bernard, and Plaquemines, was put into effect after much wrangling (the Governor of Mississippi and the rural Louisiana sheriffs at first refused to particpate), and it more or less worked. Many more people evacuated for Katrina than evacuated for Ivan, and traffic, while very heavy, was not the nightmare it was for Ivan. Otherwise, the only plan for evacuating the poor, elderly, and disabled was the "buddy" system whereby those with extra room in their cars were urged to offer a seat to neighbors who would otherwise be stuck (that is how I myself got out). Also churches were encouraged to pair up with similar churches in safe areas and take out their elderly, poor, and disabled congregants in church vans/buses. That was it as far as the poor, elderly, and disabled evacuation went. Of course, that is totally inadequate, but everyone knew it.

When I first moved to New Orleans 25 years ago (I went through Betsy up in Pennsylvania and only watched Camille from afar as an employee of an insurance company), the Red Cross opened shelters provisioned with food, water, cots, generators, sanitary facilities, staff, security, etc., throughout the New Orleans metro area. A few years ago, the Red Cross decided it would no longer provide shelters south of I-12. That led to the first disaster of using the Superdome as the shelter of last resort for Georges in 1998. Since 1998, many ideas have been formulated for sheltering/evacuating those who can't get out by themselves, but none of them is feasible. That led to the second and much worse Superdome disaster of recent days.

[Richie Rich]

Actions (or lack thereof) speak louder than words.

btw- I'm white.

[benkahuna]

Thanks very much for sharing your story and information.