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durron597
09-07-2005, 05:53 PM
I think this guy likes playing pots with me, because I am playing LAG. So his limp means basically anything.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t3900)
Button (t1000)
SB (t2488)
Hero (t2460)
UTG (t3652)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t100, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: (t300) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (t300) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1000</font>, SB folds, Hero ... ?

zipppy
09-07-2005, 06:03 PM
I assume SB folded before you had to act?

durron597
09-07-2005, 06:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I assume SB folded before you had to act?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed, thanks for the catch

zipppy
09-07-2005, 06:11 PM
I think a flush (or full house) would value bet, and not raise 800. It seems like he is trying to represent the 3 or flush, and so I would either call or push. Also, how aggressive has he been with draws? He wasn't aggressive on this hand, if he had the flush draw, so that could help depending on your read. Calling leaves you with 1260 which is 12 BB and some FE, I favor a call here, but that could very well be wrong.

&gt;&gt;&gt;ZIPPPY

Edit: calling leaves you with 1360, and more than 13 BB.

durron597
09-07-2005, 06:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
and so I would either call or push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saving my thoughts for later, except to say that pushing is horrid, no worse hand calls me and no better hand folds.

zipppy
09-07-2005, 06:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and so I would either call or push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saving my thoughts for later, except to say that pushing is horrid, no worse hand calls me and no better hand folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very wise.

durron597
09-07-2005, 06:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Very wise.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

valenzuela
09-07-2005, 06:36 PM
After checking out the hand and looking at the stacks...I cant friggin fold here.

kong98
09-07-2005, 06:38 PM
I'll occasionally make a huge bet on the end with the flush to make it look like I'm trying to bluff the pot.

With that said, I think I call here. You've been a LAG, so your bet looks like an attempt to buy the pot. If you're wrong, you still have enough chips to fight your way back and win.

durron597
09-07-2005, 07:24 PM
I noticed none of the replies here made any attempt to put Villian on a range...

Newt_Buggs
09-07-2005, 07:29 PM
I would call

bluefeet
09-07-2005, 08:33 PM
How horrible is check/calling? I'm asking, honestly.

I understand you tripped your 3's. But in this "non-nut" situation - even with the lack of any interest to this point, I find a check/call line potentially more profitable &amp; safer line (all be it weaker maybe).

Your bet is as much a blocking bet as it is a value bet (as a non-flush is likely folding). But it only serves a purpose, if a villian is holding a smallish flush. A large flush or bluffer is coming over the top here - leaving you a tough decision where the outcome (+ or -) has a significant impact on your stack.

If you check here, you'll likely either pick up the pot uncontested, or be facing a smaller "value bet" lead, where calling will still often be +Cev (vs. your lead, followed by folds), when he doesn't have the flush -- and less expensive when he does.

I guess the downside to this line is when you face a large overbet. But given the small pot, I think you'll see much more of the value bet size here - bluff or no bluff.

Any merit to this line? If not...TELL ME (I have a leak /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

kong98
09-07-2005, 08:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I noticed none of the replies here made any attempt to put Villian on a range...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because we suck at that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Given your read that he limps with anything, I'm not sure where to start...

Hands he doesn't have:

- I don't think he has an A or a Q because he would probably have bet the flop or the turn.
- A spade draw is possible but he'd likely bet that on the flop too.
- A monster AA or QQ. I don't think he slowplays the turn if he was slowplaying before.

Hands he might have:

- Gutshot with KJ.
- Low or middle pair scared of the over-cards.
- Suited connectors, possibly in hearts.
- Any other 2 and a bluff.

How is that? I think I still like calling his raise. (Am I a donkey?)

lastchance
09-07-2005, 08:46 PM
Either he's bluffing, he is one of those people who believes in checking to get value, even when it's not warranted, or he has you beat.

That's my read.

Is he one of those guys who will check an ace on the flop and the turn?

A Q or a 9 don't raise you on the end I think.

But, he can be bluffing here, with anything. You haven't shown strength, and your river bet is kinda suspicious.

Other than that, he has a heart flush, or maybe the case 3.

durron597
09-07-2005, 08:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]

But, he can be bluffing here, with anything. You haven't shown strength, and your river bet is kinda suspicious.

Other than that, he has a heart flush, or maybe the case 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I thought at the time. But just because we can only beat a bluff doesn't mean it's wrong, because my bet is still pretty suspicious.

If it helps, I have some history with Villian (I was getting too much respect so I started mixing it up):

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t4050)
Button (t1000)
SB (t3038)
Hero (t2110)
UTG (t3302)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t200</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t100.

Flop: (t450) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, UTG calls t250.

Turn: (t950) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t400</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1350

lastchance
09-07-2005, 08:57 PM
Yeah, I think he's bluffing a lot of the time, and I think you should call, but I might be wrong.

And you also have to fact in that he could just suck at poker, and raised because he felt like it.

bluefeet
09-07-2005, 09:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How horrible is check/calling? I'm asking, honestly.

I understand you tripped your 3's. But in this "non-nut" situation - even with the lack of any interest to this point, I find a check/call line potentially more profitable &amp; safer line (all be it weaker maybe).

Your bet is as much a blocking bet as it is a value bet (as a non-flush is likely folding). But it only serves a purpose, if a villian is holding a smallish flush. A large flush or bluffer is coming over the top here - leaving you a tough decision where the outcome (+ or -) has a significant impact on your stack.

If you check here, you'll likely either pick up the pot uncontested, or be facing a smaller "value bet" lead, where calling will still often be +Cev (vs. your lead, followed by folds), when he doesn't have the flush -- and less expensive when he does.

I guess the downside to this line is when you face a large overbet. But given the small pot, I think you'll see much more of the value bet size here - bluff or no bluff.

Any merit to this line? If not...TELL ME (I have a leak /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]


...still looking for evaluation /images/graemlins/wink.gif

anyone besides OP? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

lastchance
09-07-2005, 09:02 PM
Random 2 pairs call you way too much of the time for you to check call here.

Jman28
09-07-2005, 09:05 PM
I would give him credit. He has no reason to believe you don't have the flush, so coming over the top on a bluff is scary (especially if he thinks you're a lag).

durron597
09-07-2005, 09:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would give him credit. He has no reason to believe you don't have the flush, so coming over the top on a bluff is scary (especially if he thinks you're a lag).

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the previous hand I posted effect your opinion Jman?

bluefeet
09-07-2005, 09:16 PM
damn! that's what he said.

i guess i have another leak.

if we're ahead here more times than not, i just think that the times we face exactly a "bet/call" - for t200 additional chips is not happening too often. more often, a "bet/fold". an occasional "bet/raise/call" -- where in many cases you will be losing a substantial number of chips.

i can't see where check/calling (when we're ahead more times than not) is worse - when the times we are behind, we stand to lose FAR fewer chips. not to mention when we'll perhaps see as many "check/check"s as we will "bet/folds" (+ the t300 pot).


[ps. i just prop'd you! say something like...."by gosh bluefeet, i think you have something here!!" /images/graemlins/wink.gif]

durron597
09-07-2005, 09:37 PM
The problem is that we have absolutely no reason to believe he has a flush. He believes I am LAG, he might even call with K high!! On the other hand, the times he does have the flush, does he raise this much?

Jman28
09-07-2005, 09:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would give him credit. He has no reason to believe you don't have the flush, so coming over the top on a bluff is scary (especially if he thinks you're a lag).

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the previous hand I posted effect your opinion Jman?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. The situation is too different to have a big impact. Not to mention the fact that many players don't even care to remember hands like that.

I don't think it makes a difference.

Roland32
09-07-2005, 11:46 PM
Hey blue my opinion on your questioin is this. You need to value bet your good hands. no one has shown strength and betting at this often enough will have someone looking you up w Ace high. Or inducing a bluff from a Lag, O wait thats whats happening here. I think this is a pretty good call here if he flushed you or has the case 3( which I doubt, position why would he not bet turn?) then you will have to pay him off. These are the hands that give you the advantage when pushing on the bubble.

curtains
09-08-2005, 12:04 AM
FWIW I would generally fold to the raise. I would lean towards betting the river too, but I don't think checking is terrible.

09-08-2005, 12:05 AM
This is a really tough situation. I think it is a call though. He could have had suited connecter hearts and was willing to fold the hand on the flop and even turn. Then, his flush could have hit on the river. But at the same time, he could be thinking "Hey, this guy is a pretty decent stack, and I am pretty certain he is just trying to buy it after all the checks throughout the previous 2 rounds. I'm going to put a little on the line to 1: win the chips in the pot, and 2: Let everyone know that when I'm in a pot, they are going to have to invest a lot of money if they want to play against me."

durron597
09-08-2005, 12:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]

FWIW I would generally fold to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two questions curtains:

1) At this buyin?
2) Do you prefer bluefeet's check-call line?

bawcerelli
09-08-2005, 12:27 AM
at this buy in i would call the raise.

durron597
09-08-2005, 02:28 AM
He did, in fact, have the flush. 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif I was surprised to see him raise so much with the flush, especially since I could have the flush too and if I do it's likely higher than his and he doesn't want to see me reraise him. I honestly put him on total air.

I find it interesting that the two players who correctly said to fold this are Jman and curtains, I wonder if there is something fundamental that the rest of us are missing here. I feel like all my logic justifying this call sounds like FPS, though on the other hand I wonder if the call is good for image reasons. But it's a $16, does image matter all that much?

bawcerelli
09-08-2005, 05:49 AM
Calling him down is not FPS. You thought it through and tried to solve it logically. FPS is creating something out of nothing.

curtains
09-08-2005, 06:00 AM
I wouldnt call the raise. Why would this guy raise to 1000 here in a tiny pot after checking the whole hand unless he can beat 83?

09-08-2005, 08:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that the two players who correctly said to fold this are Jman and curtains, I wonder if there is something fundamental that the rest of us are missing here.

[/ QUOTE ]The hand wasn't likely to have been posted if you weren't up against a flush. I don't mean to question jman and curtains, really, just point out that maybe sometimes our answers are influenced a bit by the fact that the problem was posted in the first place.

durron597
09-08-2005, 03:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The hand wasn't likely to have been posted if you weren't up against a flush. I don't mean to question jman and curtains, really, just point out that maybe sometimes our answers are influenced a bit by the fact that the problem was posted in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I post hands that I win about as often as hands that I lose.

curtains
09-08-2005, 04:27 PM
I dunno, I think its pretty obvious to fold. I mean really why in the world would this guy suddenly come out of the weeds on the river without a better hand than 83? I just don't think its that likely. Of course it will happen sometimes but not enough for me to call 800 more here.

durron597
09-08-2005, 06:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I dunno, I think its pretty obvious to fold. I mean really why in the world would this guy suddenly come out of the weeds on the river without a better hand than 83? I just don't think its that likely. Of course it will happen sometimes but not enough for me to call 800 more here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, with the A and Q on board if he has the case 3 we are chopping unless he has exactly K3...

curtains
09-09-2005, 04:05 AM
a 3 is not the only thing Im worried about. Honestly I wouldnt expect to win the whole pot here very often. Not nearly enough to call 800 chips. Why is the guy suddenly raising to 1000? Do we really think people are so insane to just check a hand down the entire way and then make a huge raise on the river in a tiny pot, without a hand?

09-09-2005, 04:39 AM
I admit that I would have instant-called in the game but now I am sure that this is a big leak (especially the "instant"-part of the call).
May be it is a pure bluff - because your LAG-play and his stack you might put it up to 20%. But the other 80% I just cannot find a hand that you beat. Change turn and river card and he might have played Q9 of a different suit. But still, looking to it with his eyes:
When raising he should be sure, that he might be called by a worse hand (plus FE of course)- this is exactly what you hold :-(

curtains
09-10-2005, 03:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that the two players who correctly said to fold this are Jman and curtains, I wonder if there is something fundamental that the rest of us are missing here.

[/ QUOTE ]The hand wasn't likely to have been posted if you weren't up against a flush. I don't mean to question jman and curtains, really, just point out that maybe sometimes our answers are influenced a bit by the fact that the problem was posted in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absurd, you don't need to see the results to understand that there are very few hands that 83o beats that would raise to 1000 on this river. It's not like it's some very close call for me.