Poorly played $5/10 hand

[Malone Brown]

CO is a 2+2er who is LAG, I respect his game. Not been getting hands this session, CO's been pressuring me alot, probably sees me as being pretty tight.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($485)
SB ($582.50)
BB ($968)
Hero ($1151)
MP ($360.50)
CO ($1632)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls $10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $45</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $35.

Flop: ($105) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($105) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $65</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $145</font>, CO calls $80.

River: ($395) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $1442 (All-In)</font>, Hero ?.

checked river knowing CO would take a shot at it, wasn't prepared for the all-in though....where'd I play it wrong and who calls here???

Thanks

Malone

[Hattifnatt]

When a LAG checks behind at a flop like that the warning-clock should ring.

I think he flopped three 9s or hit a set of aces on the turn.

Fold the river, not easy though.

[Rocaix]

I'd raise more on the turn, probably to 200. And given the way you played the hand, and what CO thinks of you. I'd call the overbet, since it's unlikely he puts you on a flush, and his line is inconsistent with that of a set. So the only hand I might be worried about here is A5.

[AZK]

lead flop; then hand will play itself.

[Malone Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
When a LAG checks behind at a flop like that the warning-clock should ring.

I think he flopped three 9s or hit a set of aces on the turn.

Fold the river, not easy though.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking as well.

[BobboFitos]

hey malone, i doubt you need to take pf suggestions from me or whatnot, but... i dont like limp/calling dominated hands oop from aggressive opponents. it just leads to tricky (read: unprofitable) scenarios where you dump alot of money "finding where you are," etc etc.

that said I normally raise pf, KJh is good hand. =)

On the turn I like the c/r, he didnt bet the flop so he has nothing or big hand, you give him a chance to bluff at it or "protect" his hand... But you need to c/r more. For both value and protection...

On the river I think you should fold, normally here I like block betting to garner money from smaller flushes / mid pairs he may try to snap you off w/ etc, just because I dont know what hand range he'd value bet or bluff. (Most similar but worse hands check behind, and what bluffs the riv? You have the Kh)

BTW riv you're calling 960 to win 2315, so he needs to be bluffing ~42% of the time to break even. Given lack of things he could be bluffing, and the fact he's not betting a worse hand for value here, it's a fold.

[Malone Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
hey malone, i doubt you need to take pf suggestions from me or whatnot, but... i dont like limp/calling dominated hands oop from aggressive opponents. it just leads to tricky (read: unprofitable) scenarios where you dump alot of money "finding where you are," etc etc.

that said I normally raise pf, KJh is good hand. =)

[/ QUOTE ]

I normally wouldn't, but SH against someone who's raising the majority of his hands PF (he could have a huge range of hands)I will. Especially since he knows/thinks I play tight, giving me the chance to push him off a hand if he does happen to have one.

Malone

[JMP300z]

I raise coming in here and sometimes fold...i think limping is ok if the games real passive and youll induce QJ/JT/KT to limp behind, but its not...and calling that raise is the sucks!

As far as the river play goes.

Does he know youre 2+2?
Does he overbet without the nuts on the end?
Do you check the nuts EVER on the river....hes a lag, he knows you might do this to induce a bluff?
What do you put him on when he calls your turn CR? AK w/ the Kh is possible but why wouldnt he have bet the flop and why would he push the river?

I fold this river a lot.

Why would he call the turn just to bluff the river all in?

Why would he push all in with a weaker flush when the board paired? He def doesnt have a weaker flush like a J high trying to get value from your even weaker flush since you limped UTG....therefore youre beating a bluff and losing to a full.

Unless he VeRy frequently does this push...
Fold. You said yourself you didnt expect his "bluff" to be all in...
As5s makes sense to me. Dont bet the flop b/c he probably has you reverse dominated and could win a decent pot if an ace hits the turn and you have AK. That or 99 or 33.

-JP-

[Malone Brown]

[ QUOTE ]

Does he know youre 2+2? [ QUOTE ]


Yes

[ QUOTE ]

Does he overbet without the nuts on the end?
Do you check the nuts EVER on the river....hes a lag, he knows you might do this to induce a bluff?[ QUOTE ]


This I don't know...haven't played with him all that much.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you put him on when he calls your turn CR? AK w/ the Kh is possible but why wouldnt he have bet the flop and why would he push the river?[ QUOTE ]


I was thinking flopped set, thinking because I'm tight, probably have flush and hoping to fill up.

[Malone Brown]

Wow that's ugly,
hope you can decipher that.

Malone

[fsuplayer]

bet $250 on this river, fold to a raise.

[Prevaricator]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you put him on when he calls your turn CR? AK w/ the Kh is possible but why wouldnt he have bet the flop and why would he push the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

it's really not possible.

[JMP300z]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you put him on when he calls your turn CR? AK w/ the Kh is possible but why wouldnt he have bet the flop and why would he push the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

it's really not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking best case scenario other than a complete bluff.

-JP

[Prevaricator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you put him on when he calls your turn CR? AK w/ the Kh is possible but why wouldnt he have bet the flop and why would he push the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

it's really not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking best case scenario other than a complete bluff.

-JP

[/ QUOTE ]

no, really its impossible. look at the cards.

[JMP300z]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you put him on when he calls your turn CR? AK w/ the Kh is possible but why wouldnt he have bet the flop and why would he push the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

it's really not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking best case scenario other than a complete bluff.

-JP

[/ QUOTE ]

no, really its impossible. look at the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, yah sorry, really best case scenario, the deck is bad. Missdeal, get your money back.

-JP

[Malone Brown]

I thought for long time and folded. Thinking back, should have played it much different. Hopefully the 2+2er will see this and let us know if it was a good lay-down.

Malone

[captZEEbo1]

villain is me...and I definitely had no read on you (I was 8-tabling). I remember this hand, and I'm shocked you had this hand and folded.

I like how everyone tries to analyze stuff "what is villains view of you?", "Villain views me as tight", etc. I rarely have any opinions on anyone other than they probably all generally suck. I wouldn't really even consider you tight...limping utg and calling a pot raise oop with KJs, how is that tight?

[Hattifnatt]

8-tabling 6handed NL with a LAG style... How can you handle that? Amazing if you do...

[Malone Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
villain is me...and I definitely had no read on you (I was 8-tabling). I remember this hand, and I'm shocked you had this hand and folded.

I like how everyone tries to analyze stuff "what is villains view of you?", "Villain views me as tight", etc. I rarely have any opinions on anyone other than they probably all generally suck. I wouldn't really even consider you tight...limping utg and calling a pot raise oop with KJs, how is that tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Had I known you were 8-tabling, I actually may have actually called. And calling a pot raise oop with KJs is something I would have done only against you at the table because of the fact you had been raising PF so much, there was a good chance I was ahead. But I still highly doubt you made that move without a hand that I was behind of.

Malone

[Malone Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
I like how everyone tries to analyze stuff "what is villains view of you?", "Villain views me as tight", etc. I rarely have any opinions on anyone other than they probably all generally suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for most people I play against I usually assume they aren't 8-tabling and are paying attention to who they are playing against, I don't think that people over-analyze a hand like this, just most people play with reads.

Malone

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
Well for most people I play against I usually assume they aren't 8-tabling and are paying attention to who they are playing against, I don't think that people over-analyze a hand like this, just most people play with reads.

Malone

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you are giving your opponents too much credit. Maybe that's naive thinking on my part, but if there are so many losing players out there (85%?), I highly doubt MOST opponents have good reads on ALL their opponents. Either that, or they just have NO clue how to use reads (eg. this player plays too loose! but omg what do I do?)

[theBruiser500]

don't fall for a LAG playesr trap. lag people play that way speciically for this situation so they get people with no disciplien to pay them off fold the river.

whynot just lead the river though? what could he "takea shot with" exactly? he called the turn he has something.

[theBruiser500]

btw, i try reading the hand history too closely to analyze what this dude has. when someone makes a big overbet though, they have it, unless you know otherwise fold.

[Malone Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
don't fall for a LAG playesr trap. lag people play that way speciically for this situation so they get people with no disciplien to pay them off fold the river.

whynot just lead the river though? what could he "takea shot with" exactly? he called the turn he has something.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I lead the the river for a pot sized bet, and he raises me all in, does this make my river fold any easier?

[DonButtons]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't fall for a LAG playesr trap. lag people play that way speciically for this situation so they get people with no disciplien to pay them off fold the river.

whynot just lead the river though? what could he "takea shot with" exactly? he called the turn he has something.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I lead the the river for a pot sized bet, and he raises me all in, does this make my river fold any easier?

[/ QUOTE ]

Blocking bet?

[Malone Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO you are giving your opponents too much credit. Maybe that's naive thinking on my part, but if there are so many losing players out there (85%?), I highly doubt MOST opponents have good reads on ALL their opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying you are probably giving up alot of $$$ by playing without reads on your opponents. Maybe playing well without reads at 8 tables may ofset this, who knows....just my thoughts.

Malone

[DonButtons]

Most hands just play themselves out 8 tabling. He just plays them in his style that he developed. And I bet there not all short handed, prob. a couple full tables in there which he prob. could auto pilot in.

On a side note, he tried to play me heads up yesterday but got scared /images/graemlins/wink.gif Guess to many tables.

[cwl]

[ QUOTE ]


So I lead the the river for a pot sized bet, and he raises me all in, does this make my river fold any easier?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think he was suggesting you bet out here cause it makes folding easier if you get raised. i think the point was that there is value in a bet the many times you are winning and not much value in inducing a bluff.