The Most Donkeyfied Play I"ve ever made-Please punish me severely

[sng-sam]

Ok in my continuing effort to humiliate myself whenever I make a DONKIFIED PLAY (like this one) I submit to you the following hand. Please provide the following:

1. Sadistic Verbal response to this horrible play
2. How you would play this.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t505)
Hero (t715)
UTG (t1190)
MP1 (t655)
MP2 (t1365)
CO (t1060)
Button (t2510)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t100</font>, Button calls t100, SB calls t75, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t250</font>, CO calls t150, Button calls t150, SB calls t150.

Flop: (t1000) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

SB checks,Hero Bets t275, CO raises t550,Button raises t825, SB is all-in,Hero is all-in, CO is all-in

Turn: J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

River: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

Final Pot:

Results in white:

<font color="white">Button shows [6h,6d] three of a kind, sixes.
SB shows [Q9o] a pair of Queens
Hero shows [AcAd} pair of aces
CO shows [QcTc] a flush queen high </font>

You got the Bronze at least.

Without question push preflop. I know this seems like results oriented advice but it isn't.

One raiser and 2 callers means difficult isolation. You raised 1/3 of your stack anyway. Push and hope to get HU where AA belongs.

Oh yeah. And you lick Shrek's balls.

[BigHobo]

1. Yeah, that sucked pretty bad. Did you really think you were getting anyone out with that feeble pre-flop raise?

2. Raise to a minimum of 400 pre-flop.

[durron597]

Push preflop.

Edit: you must do this because no one is going to fold to the 250 raise and there is enough interest you will probably get it allin HU against somebody, the ideal situation for AA.

[Slim Pickens]

I think you're play was fine.

EDIT: Except for not pushing the flop. Seriously though, why would you not want to get called by TPTK and a flush draw on the flop, getting almost 4:1 for 2/3 of your stack?

[Slim Pickens]

Why the bloody hell do you want to "get anyone out" when you have AA? I hope my sarcasm detector is broken.

[sng-sam]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you're play was fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

this may be the most sadistic and cruel response yet

[LesJ]

&lt;&lt;Push preflop. &gt;&gt;

I have to agree here. With your stack I believe you best chance is to isolate and double-up. "Worst case" (at least we figure) is that everyone folds and you win 350 chips, which overall isn't that bad of a result (at least it beats what actually transpired). It is possible, however, that the one of the two hands that beat you calls your all-in and you go down in flames anyway. They certainly were not pot-committed at that point, however, so I believe a lay down of 6 6 and Q T s are fairly likely.
What level you playing at these days Sam, I haven't seen ya in a few days?
Les

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think you're play was fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

this may be the most sadistic and cruel response yet

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't perfect, but really, it's not that bad. You just got all upset because your play wasn't perfect and you lost. They aren't exactly correlated.

[sng-sam]

I've moved up to 33s lately. You should come they are nice. There are guys there that slow play their aces and let you get their with QTs and win monster pots!

[kyro]

Not pushing PF is moronic so I can't tell you what to do on the flop because I never get in that situation.

There is 400 in the pot and you only raise it 150 more with 3 opponents preflop.

Raise a LOT more. You want to get this heads up.

Further, you are only left like 400 and change to bet on the flop with 1k in the pot. This won't take it down.

With a raise and two callers ahead of me, I push this PF. Get one caller, win.

[microbet]

AA plays very well against multiple opponents, but there is no better money than dead money.

Still, if this is your worst play ever, you are doing fine IMO, Sam.

To be results oriented, you would have lost this hand if you would have pushed preflop too. Shortstack with 66 wasn't going away.

[ QUOTE ]

To be results oriented, you would have lost this hand if you would have pushed preflop too. Shortstack with 66 wasn't going away.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your point?? Pushing PF is the infinitely obvious choice here.

EDIT: Yes, we want 66 to call us. And yes, more often than not, the board will not bring a 6. All the more reason to push PF.

[applejuicekid]

This isn't bad. Why does everyone want people to fold when we have the nuts? I don't understand.

ps: I'm pushing preflop as well, but only because losing with aces makes me sad.

[Slim Pickens]

The only reason I'm pushing the flop here rather than betting 1/2 my stack is to guard against the somewhat-unlikely situation where my flop bet gets HU with one player, who is then able to fold after the turn (or river if you're full-blown FPS) misses his flush or straight draw. Look at what ended up in the all-in pot: a flush draw and an inside straight draw along with the made set. Why would you ever want to fold such retarded opponents, who will minraise non-nut flush draws and call all-in with a gutshot, out of a pot? I submit that to all of you who want to push preflop.

[microbet]

Was it really that difficult to understand exactly what I meant?

[microbet]

Like I said (implied) before I don't think preflop was horrible.

At some point the dead money will be better than live money, no matter how big a dog they are.

Maybe I'll run some numbers later.

Pushing preflop may fold some or all opponents, what would be best? I'll check that out too unless someone (hopefully) beats me to it.

I'm thinking everyone calling your push would be fine, but everyone calling a smallish raise and thus only getting full price from people who hit the flop isn't as good as just picking up the dead money or getting maybe just one caller to a push.

[Slim Pickens]

You make a good point about dead money. The thing I like about AA is that so many hands can "hit" the flop, willing to go to the felt, and still be way behind AA. Even when they flop two pair, it still has a lot of outs.

Numbers here would be good. I'll defer to someone with a licenced copy of Poker Stove. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at what ended up in the all-in pot: a flush draw and an inside straight draw along with the made set. Why would you ever want to fold such retarded opponents, who will minraise non-nut flush draws and call all-in with a gutshot, out of a pot? I submit that to all of you who want to push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think they all fold preflop to an obvious steal attempt from the Big Blind if they are calling with such garbage on the flop.

This is an easy push preflop. And it's not even close.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll defer to someone with a licenced copy of Poker Stove. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pokerstove is free. You don't have to be embarrased that you don't have a copy.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll defer to someone with a licenced copy of Poker Stove. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pokerstove is free. You don't have to be embarrased that you don't have a copy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I just pwned myself. Thanks.

I really am surprised that there are regular posters on this forum who don't feel the need to isolate with AA. Why not just limp/slowplay them every time and curse your bad beats?

[Slim Pickens]

AA is 85% against one random hand and ~70% against two random hands (somebody is learnding PokerStove). Even against three random hands it's about 64%. A 64% edge is easily enough to take at any stage of a tournament for even money. With AA it's getting 3:1. I understand the idea of isolating with a weaker hand. 40% to triple up is still +cEV, but you won't be successful in the SNG payout structure (read: -$EV) pushing with a 40% chance to triple up. You'd much rather take the 65% chance to double up you would get folding out a weaker (25% in a three-way pot) hand. Please explain why I want to isolate with AA.

SlimP

[microbet]

In this case I would push, but I certainly don't want to always isolate with AA. I think it boils down to what odds are you offering your opponents and in this case you are pretty clearly offering them good odds (at least a second caller) and thus you are giving up your hard bad-beat earned Sklansky dollars.

With a raiser and two callers before you, these are not "random" hands. I'd still rather isolate ESPECIALLY if someone has shown strength because I can likely get them to put a lot of their chips in with an underpair or a dominated hand. I understand that AA is still a decent favorite in a 3-4 way pot but I'd rather exploit the biggest edge I can. And if you happen to scare them away, well the dead money in the pot is half your stack.

Your logic implies that limping with AA in MP and hoping that those behind you do the same is desired.

When the flop comes coordinated/suited - you may still hold up, but you'll wish you had pushed preflop.

You may be a great poker player, but your advice here is completely counterintuitive to me.

[Slim Pickens]

I'm not advocating limping AA anywhere. I like the raise, and hate the limp. There's not really any correct way to play this hand that allows you to fold it at any point. The debate here is how much to raise. Since you can't fold, I say the raise should be enough that a number of players (not everyone, but up to 3 for sure) might be induced to call. It's definitely better to err on the side of raising too much rather than too little, 250 is plenty here to get the correct value. Don't forget we are gambling here.

No one who reads this board regularly is going to mistake me for a great player.

[jeffraider]

I probably make it 300 or 325 preflop but I play it basically the same. I also tend to win monster pots with AA all the time.

[ QUOTE ]
I really am surprised that there are regular posters on this forum who don't feel the need to isolate with AA. Why not just limp/slowplay them every time and curse your bad beats?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Fatdogs12]

I don't know why this guy gets dogged so bad over this hand... I don't think it was an absolute push preflop at all nessasarily. You could do it that way if you wanted to but it's not nessasary. Raising to 325/350 is just as good, it isolates and maybe brings along an AK (a stupid ak but still) and could possibly elicit a push. I don't like just pushing here with AA

[illegit]

Raise a lot more PF, possibly pushing. Push the flop after getting at least half my stack in PF.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really am surprised that there are regular posters on this forum who don't feel the need to isolate with AA. Why not just limp/slowplay them every time and curse your bad beats?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Would any of you care to explain why you want to isolate with AA when it plays just fine in a 4-way pot, even against better than purely random hands? You have aces. What hands do you want to fold? There have been other discussions about how big of an edge you would need to call all-in for all your chips, and no one put forth a credible argument for anything over about 65%, and that's getting even money. To get that low a winning probability with aces you'll be getting over 3:1 on your money.

Re-raising for value is not slowplaying.

[ QUOTE ]
There is 400 in the pot and you only raise it 150 more with 3 opponents preflop.

Raise a LOT more. You want to get this heads up.

Further, you are only left like 400 and change to bet on the flop with 1k in the pot. This won't take it down.

With a raise and two callers ahead of me, I push this PF. Get one caller, win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll quote what I said earlier...and add this:

THIS IS A TOURNAMENT FOLKS. THERE IS AN INHERENT DISADVANTAGE OF GOING BUST. UNLIKE IN A CASH GAME WHERE YOU CAN GO BUST AND REBUY, THIS IS A TOURNAMENT AND THE GOAL (ABOVE ALL ELSE) IS TO STAY IN AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. ISOLATING HERE IS mandatory. THERE IS ENOUGH IN THE POT PF FOR YOU TO PUSH. PUSHING HERE ALMOST GUARANTEES YOU 1 CALLER AT MINIMUM.

PUSHING PF IS SO MANDATORY THAT IF YOU DONT DO IT YOU SHOULD JUST QUIT PLAYING TOURNAMENTS.

Did someone seriously say they wanted to play this against 4 opponents!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!!??!?!? !??!!

WTF to the maximum extent.

exactly

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't bad. Why does everyone want people to fold when we have the nuts? I don't understand.


[/ QUOTE ]
You don't want them to fold, you want them to make a mistake, and some of them are only making a mistake when you re-raise larger. Take the SB for example, he has to call 150 to win a pot that's up to about 900 by the time the action gets back to him. He's getting 6-1 to flop a set when he's 7-1 to do so if he assumes (correctly) that if he hits he'll at least win the 250 he has left (in addition to the current pot) when he hits his set then he's not really making a mistake to call this re-raise as he has the implied odds to do so. You're giving drawing hands implied odds to play a multiway pot for cheap with AA. This is bad. Why make all the dead money 'live' money?

[top6]

[ QUOTE ]
THIS IS A TOURNAMENT AND THE GOAL (ABOVE ALL ELSE) IS TO STAY IN AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably right that pushing AA pre-flop here is right, but this reasoning is about as wrong as wrong can get, IMO. The goal in fact is to make as much money as possible, in the long run.

And btw, you can just buy in again, given that about 1 billion SNGs are apparently starting every minute somewhere on the internet.

[Slim Pickens]

You are right that "THERE IS AN INHERENT DISADVANTAGE OF GOING BUST." It's called busting. However, you are wrong that "THIS IS A TOURNAMENT AND THE GOAL (ABOVE ALL ELSE) IS TO STAY IN AS LONG AS POSSIBLE." The goal of tournament play is to win as much money as possible. Even against about the best possible collection of three hands, AA still wins 50% of the time, and collects 3:1. This gets cut down some when people totally miss a flop and fold to a flop push, which is why re-raising preflop is important. What you are doing is creating a pot big enough to make your opponents call when they think they have odds to call, but actually don't.

"THERE IS ENOUGH IN THE POT PF FOR YOU TO PUSH." This is the kind of statement bad players make. Highly risk-averse play is what good players exploit on the bubble. If you really need to play that scared you're playing above your bankroll.

SlimP

[top6]

exactly.

[pokerlaw]

not pushing makes me a very sad panda...

wow.

The first comment has some truth to it, but the second one is way off.

Sure, he can gather more chips (POSSIBLY) by playing 4 opponents, but his risk of ruin against 4 foe's is drastically enhanced.

Who the F wants to bust from a tourney with AA ? Not me. Do you realize how stoopid you'd feel, busting with this hand in this spot?

No, My bankroll is $1K and I play 10+1.

Again, the pot is 400 by the time it gets to you PF.

You raise 150, against three players.

This is so pointless it hurts. You are left with 400+ for "post flop play" lol.

400! There is 1K in the Effin pot on the flop....vs. 3 players.... lol.

400 in pot, push all in PF, raising 615... now the pot is 1015. Opponents have to call 515 more for this.

YOU STILL WILL GET 1 caller minimum. Possibly 2. Especially since you are almost short-stacked and they may think you are stealing what's in the middle.

Stop with the FPS... push PF.

it's a MUST.

After rethinking this (and running some crude math), I STILL PUSH preflop but I see SlimPickens point. Overall it is probably slightly more +EV to be 50-60% hand favorite getting 3:1 then being 80-85% hand favorite getting 1:1.

But (a) this does not account for the dead money in the pot if you push and get one caller - this gives the edge to pushing in the EV dept.

(b) there are differences between NL cash game play and tournament play with the latter sometimes favoring passing up a little more +EV for less risk in certain situations. There is a happy medium between playing scared and not wanting to risk your tourney life on a coinflip even if the money odds justify it.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t100</font>, Button calls t100, SB calls t75, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t250</font>, CO calls t150, Button calls t150, SB calls t150.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so what happened here is the absolute worst possible case for you. The first caller gets 4:1, and everybody else gets better odds than that, so they're close to correct to call. cEV~=$eV though so it's not as bad as it looks. The problem with pushing is that it also allows your opponents to make the correct play and fold, so maybe a raise to 350 is better, but that's fine tweaking and not too important here.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t1000) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

SB checks,Hero Bets t275, CO raises t550,Button raises t825, SB is all-in,Hero is all-in, CO is all-in

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously, I'm never folding AA to any flop in any situation here. It's all going in anyway, and the only issue is getting the most money in with yours. Smaller bet or push... eh... I don't even dislike the non-push as much as I did originally, but the pot is just the right size so that people getting 3:1 to call your push with what they think is a winning hand (say top pair plus gutshot) are actually drawing to a 6-outer. Either way, AA is never folding.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

Still, if this is your worst play ever, you are doing fine IMO, Sam.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. If this had been a multi, and the result had been different, you'd have looked like a genius.

I agree with others, though: shove pf.