24hPOKER flat fee quota filled

[24hPOKER]

Being a test, the flat rate experiements quota is now filled up and sign ups from now on will not be eligible for this deal.

We will now analyze the results and see where it takes us. I am sorry for all those who did not have the chance or take the opportunity to participate.

I am looking forward to some reports from the participants on results of this trial and of course will monitor the results closely myself.

I am well aware of that I initially did not set a time limit on the signup period and this was made intentionally in order for me to be more flexible about the size of the flat fee group.

All the best

[Inthacup]

Thus ends my attraction to 24h poker.

[Mike Haven]

i can't see how you will learn too much by throwing this curve ball at the last minute

out of interest, how many players signed up? are there enough games going to keep them playing long enough to pay you $100 rake each?

if they pay you only $75 each will you rate the test as being a success?

[24hPOKER]

Sorry, I will not divulge the exact number. I will say that it took much shorter time than expected.

As to the games going, we have trouble getting HE limit started. However, jek187 started a table way off peak 12 hours ago and had a full table in 20 minutes or so from scratch.

It's the table starting that scares people At the moment we have 61 cash players though.

Finally, the point is not to have a whole bunch of 2+2:ers playing each other.

Best regards

[Jim Kuhn]

I downloaded the software last night to sign up for the deal. Upon inspecting the games I only saw two real money players on the whole site. It would have been nice if you stated up front that this was a limited time offer.

It seems that this offer will bring in alot of 2+2 new players that will be much tougher than the average player. Was the offer advertised anywhere else?

[tdiddy]

However, jek187 started a table way off peak 12 hours ago and had a full table in 20 minutes or so from scratch.

Jek, how does it feel to have sold your soul?

I recall someone jokingly suggested the creation of RakeWhores group in the PartyPoker rake thread. Perhaps, Jek, you can be King of all RakeWhores.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Stefan:

You wrote:

Finally, the point is not to have a whole bunch of 2+2:ers playing each other.

Why? Just because people post here it doesn't mean they are experts. Furthermore, their money spends as well as someone's else's.

You may be missing an idea that's important in my opinion. Poker rooms need regular players to start games and keep them going. Posters here are more likely to be that type of player. I think you're making a mistake not taking more, but of course that's you choice.

In any case, I want to thank you for participating in these forums and interacting with our posters. Good luck with the experiment.

Best wishes,
Mason

[RiverMel]

To add to that, if players want to play at a site where they know other 2+2ers are playing--why stop them? If what you're really worried about is people stopping coming to your site because of all the 2+2 "sharks," I would say Mason's post is correct and should allay any concern.

[Graham]

I think it's because it is a very experimental thing, that's why Stefan wants to limit it...bit of an into-the-unkown thing, to go-where-no-man-has-gone-before. I give Stefan and 24hrpoker kudos for giving it a shot.

Just because people post here it doesn't mean they are experts.

Never a truer word said....just come and check my game out. Although, Mason, you do know that the average 2+2 crowd is definitely going to be reasonably tough. We just need Stefan to open the offer up on rgp so we can fill the games with the players we really want... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Terry]

I agree with Mr. M here. Many of the 2+2ers I have met and played against, both online and in home games play literally twice as many hands as I play... but then again, I learned to play in Las Vegas.

Anyway, Stefan, I hope you get your limit games going. I'm not much for starting games either, but if you get some action I will give you a try.

[Jim Kuhn]

I think a 'better trial' would be to open this offer up to all and rather than last to the end of the year make it 3 or 4 months. You could then re-evaluate the numbers and decide whether to extend the rake offer for a longer period of time. I would think the 'more new patrons the better'.

[n1stunnor]

Stefan,
Isn't your objective here to get much more traffic at your site?There seems to have been a lot of interest in this "idea".How is limiting it to however many people you limited it to(25?) going to really help that much?
When i heard about this i became excited and thought i would make a deposit and start playing at your site regularly(40-50hrs week).I'm positive there are many others that felt the same.

[Jim Kuhn]

Good Post! I agree! I would have signed up but I logged on and only two people were playing real money games. I thought maybe this rake idea would increase the traffic and I could deposit and play there often. But I guess they do not want 'too much' traffic.

[jek187]

First off, I'd like to say that Stefan's program is the absolute nuts. I wish he'd let everyone in (more the merrier) but I'm in the program...and it makes me want to tell the world about it. I will try to avoid becoming like how Justice4All is towards ACR (publicly at least.)

I had already signed up for 24h long ago, when they had their 1st depo bonus. That is the only one I never finished as I couldn't play short handed or PL/NL. Now I can at least play well enough short not to get raped every time I sit down, so the lack of traffic doesn't bother me much.

I sat down a little after 2AM MDT at a 1/2 table and played HU for a bit. In about 20 min or so, we got our 3rd player. After that, the table filled quickly, and we stayed 5-8 handed until 6AM MDT. (When I left, the game broke...hmmm...maybe I don't play as good short as I thought.)

The software is smooth, and the graphics are plain, but definitely not an eyesore. I like the "No More Blinds" check-box. Having the chat and dealer speak in 2 different boxes is nice too. Otherwise, nothing else really sticks out about the software (which, more often than not, is a good thing.)

The quality of players ranged from very fishy to a couple decent ones. (I know there was at least one other 2+2er at the table, probably a couple more.)

I also played in their $2+0 tourney this evening. Everything went smoothly, except my cards. Overall, this site is on the good side of average. However, for those of us that were able to sign up for Stefan's deal, I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather play. Ok, that's enough spamming out of me. I won't extoll the virtues of 24h anymore unless someone asks.

[jek187]

Perhaps, Jek, you can be King of all RakeWhores.

Maybe so, maybe no. I can tell you that 24h being the first site to do this, has earned a certain bit of loyalty from me. I may never be a whore again.

[rusty JEDI]

I am feeling the same way as a few here. I read about the promo downloaded the software lastnight, took a look and went back to studying for the exam i had today. Got home after the exam planning to put a little money in and now i find out i missed the boat.

Feeling a little sore about it.

[Bob L]

Wow -and I was actually going to give 24 hr another try.I didnt know there was a limit of players you take stefan but had I known I would have played last night and signed up right away.Considering I average 13000-17000 raked hands a month at party I figured I could make a few bucks.I will say that it was a great idea but I think you could have mentioned in your terms that you were also going to limit the amount of players for the rake opportunity.Oh well -good luck anyway!

[n1stunnor]

Hmmm..For some reason the rest of my post didn't show up.

Anyway,Stefan,it seems like this would be a GREAT oppurtunity to flood your site with players.Isn't that what you want?
Do you know how many players you're "losing" by not opening this offer to all?

Best of luck to you!!

[GrannyMae]

stunnor..

question for you (and all)

what do you think that the other sites think of stefan and this experiment?

challenge to all:

go buy emerald software with a big group of you. this co-op could be formed easier than you think. open the site and use this structure.

there is nothing stopping a creative group of you guys from forming a "by the month" site. go for it.

don't forget the depo bonuses, and put me on your mailing list please. i promise to be at the grand opening.

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/i/ura.gif




how could it POSSIBLY fail with all the business it would attract ?? that's what most of you are saying, right?

[jek187]

what do you think that the other sites think of stefan and this experiment?

I'm guessing they're thinking:
"I hope this doesn't work out. If it does, we're all going to lose a lot of profit."

I will further venture to guess that should it work out, and 24h starts siphoning business away from other card rooms, they'll start thinking:
"Damn you Stefan."

What do YOU think they're thinking Granny?

[24hPOKER]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
Why? Just because people post here it doesn't mean they are experts. Furthermore, their money spends as well as someone's else's.

You may be missing an idea that's important in my opinion. Poker rooms need regular players to start games and keep them going. Posters here are more likely to be that type of player. I think you're making a mistake not taking more, but of course that's you choice.

In any case, I want to thank you for participating in these forums and interacting with our posters. Good luck with the experiment.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that they actually are experts but the fact that a lot of people - especially the new poker players - perceive them as experts/professionals. The rumour of having all the best poker players could be damaging.

About taking on more players on this deal, if we think it is the way to go, considering alternatives, we will of course not restrict ourselves to this trial group.

Best regards

[dux]

It could be the end of the poker industry's growth, not that I know anything about buisness. If over $41,000 got raked from Jim Easton's tables in one month, and instead 10 players at a table could only contribute for $1000 at $100 each.

Big cardrooms would have to follow suit in offering rake rebates if all the high stakes players were going elsewhere (I am not sure small stakes players, certainly those of the casual variety, would make any money in transferring).

Spreading the poker community over more poker rooms therefore having less at each site, would be worse for poker. There would be less poker games running reguarily, so new players would not sign up as often IMO.

[24hPOKER]

But you already signed up, using another partners bonus deal, actually excluding you from the offer.

Best regards

[24hPOKER]

No, I did not offer it anywhere else. In retrospect I should have made it clear that I wouldn't take on everyone forever and I apologize for that.

Best regards

[24hPOKER]

Well, even though some people missed this opportunity with a capped monthly rake, take a look at the value of playing at 24hPOKER with our regular rakes. a $60 pot is raked $1.50. That would still make you a considerable amount of money.

Best regards

[Mike Haven]

as it appears that your excellent initial action has now turned on its head and actually upset a few people, why not bite the bullet and open it up again to the next 25 that invest, say, $100?

that way, everyone knows where they are in the proposed deal and will only blame themselves for being slow off the mark if they miss it, and you will gain further kudos as a gentleman who is not only willing to apologise, as you have already so done, but also as a gentleman who is prepared to make amends

as someone said earlier, if you don't get the player in the first place you don't earn any rake at all in any case

[24hPOKER]

Hi,
I understand your point but will have to let the future show what will be in store. Again, I choose - for once - not to say much more about it.

Best regards

Stefan

[RollaJ]

While I missed the opportunity for this capped rake program, and am not happy about it(I too didnt realize that this was a limited time offer), I think we should all be a little more understanding of stefan's situation. He is truely going where no site has gone before, and at least giving this a shot. I believe when he realizes how many players this could draw, which will fill up games during USA hours, and in turn draw more players he will accept new flat fee players. The way I see it, 24hourpoker has a chance at becoming the biggest online poker room within 2 years, if they expand this plan or something similar

[chaos]

It is a shame that you never did bother to include in any of your additional fine print rules that this offer was going to be limited to less than 48 hrs.

I guess you did not really think this out very well.

I got the impression that the fine print was still in a state of flux and then the offer was over.

[crazy canuck]

I totally agree with Rollaj here. Stefan is running a business not a charity. Anyhow, if the deal is a success it will be available in 1 or 2 month anyhow.

[24hPOKER]

All of the above is very true. Sometimes I get a little bit to impulsive. I like to try new things and then reality bites me in the ***.

I am more interested in making interesting deals where I can offer win-win situations than going through all fine print in advance. The fine print is however necessary when offers are directed towards people you don't personally know.

Thse who have dealt with me will know that I am a man of my word and will rather stick to the intention of the deal than the exact wording of a contract.

I will most of the time back off and pay minor fees and have nothing further to do business wise in the future than argue about nickels and dimes since I believe that there is more profit and enjoyment in future possibilities than past grudges.

I always learn a few things and gain a lot of experience on the way. I am thinking about starting an email list for people interested in special tryouts where the intention and flexibility are more important than the rules and regulations.

If I already had one of those lists, this flat rate offer would probably have been offered there instead of in this public forum. However, I would probably never have come up with it myself in the first place.

Again I apologize for my impulsiveness but I am at the moment not able to open up the flat rate offer.

Best regards

[dux]

Can we now refer to the 100 a month trial as the 'dux proposition'? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
My take on this is that there should be no complaints. If the trial is successful, you will all save a lot of dollars, and Stefan will hopefully make some more at 24hPoker. If it is deemed unsuccessful, then you all haven't lost much. If Stefan didn't rush into this without writing up fine print then it may not have come at all.

And as crazy canuck said, he is running a buisness not a charity. He may find that he would be losing capital despite the extra signups.

Lets wait, and see. Here's hoping internet poker might take a step forward for users and operators.

[Tekari]

You said that a 60$ pot is raked only $1.50, which would be only 2.5%... Do offer all around reduced rake or something? Or does it just work out to be low for the $60 pot range? I think alot of places take $2 out at 40 and $3 at 60 right?

[24hPOKER]

We have lower rakes. At some intervals we rake more because the rake funds the progressicve Bad Beat Jackpot.

Our rake table can be found here:

24hPOKER Money Questions (http://www.24hpoker.com/main_moneyQuestions.asp)

(Grr, I get some script error when following that. You should probably first got to our Main page (http://www.24hpoker.com) and then click on "Money questions")

So all of you being upset about not being able to profit from the flat rate this time around, you can still profit a lot from the lower rakes in general.

The current drawback is that game selection is poor, especially on HE limit (in comparision to PLO). Also we only offer 8-handed tables which add to the fact that the games are shorthanded.

Next week we will change that and offer 10-handed HE. (as well as 2, 6 and 8)

Best regards

[Bama Boy]

Quoting an earlier post by Stefan,

"So you can see that although I would very much like to be the good guy, I too have hypocritical tendancies. <font color="red"> </font color>

I am not without sin and I too am out here to maximize my profits. To get there I really do think that the longterm way is to offer more value to the players. Good promotions is one thing, lower rakes another. Faster cashouts, security, support, game selection etc... are more issues to address."

So I would love for the rake to have a greater impact when players choose their site - but only as long as it is 24hPOKER they choose. I would not like the poker site that got major attention by promoting "$9.99 a month - no rake" and became very successful in doing so. This has not yet happened, probably because the majority of poker players are not educated enough.

Can you see the dilemma?

So all of you guys, just spread the word about the low rakes at 24hPOKER just enough but not too much. What a joke isn't it?"



http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=inet&amp;Number=245487&amp;Forum=A ll_Forums&amp;Words=24hPOKER&amp;Match=Username&amp;Searchpage =1&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=245073&amp;Search=true#P ost245487

Since he is in charge of marketing his site, he has to do anything he can to draw people to his site. What I don't get is, if people are playing somewhere else where they are pretty much satisfied, and a special rake deal comes up and brings them to your site, what makes you think they will stay once you go back on what brought them there?

Very poor long term marketing in my opinion, and I believe Stefan will regret some of things he will ultimately have to do. Promotions are great to get people to your site. But unless your software, customer service, cashout policies, players, etc etc are all better or comparable than another site, your gimmick promotion will be shortlived and not accomplish its goals.

I'm not going to go play your site because it currently has a small rake, because I know once you grow enough, you will raise it on me. Why download your software and suffer through few games and few players only to get exploited once your site is actually worth playing?

I appreciate your efforts, I wish you could do better.

Good Luck with your site. If I can be convinced that you are not deceiving people with your promotions and marketing I will be glad to play there.

[RiverMel]

At some intervals we rake more because the rake funds the progressicve Bad Beat Jackpot.

Please don't take us for fools. You don't rake more "because" the rake funds the jackpot--you rake more because you want to, and because you believe the market will bear it. You could easily still have a badbeat jackpot and fund it without increasing the rake; you simply choose not to. Your claim is similar to the claim made by casinos: "Higher limit slot machines pay out at a higher percentage because the casinos can afford to have them pay out more--they make enough from the increased limits." This is pure unadulterated B.S. They choose their payout percentages with an eye to maximizing profit--not to make some "reasonable amount" that affords them the ability to continue operating. If a casino pays out a higher percentage at the higher limit slots, it's because they've decided this will maximize their profits; not because they've picked the level at which they can "afford" to operate them. So please, don't tell us that you have increased the rake to fund the badbeat jackpot--it wasn't a causal relationship, and if it was, it was bad business reasoning (you should choose the rake level to maximize profits, not to offset marketing costs). 24hpoker is still offering a great value in terms of rake, no need to make up phony stories.

[n1stunnor]

Charity?I'm a fan of yours canuck(and god knows i love those Canucks-Vancouver style),but this remark is just plain ridiculous.

It's very simple actually.

Sell 40 hotdogs at $2 per dog=$80-[.75(costs of making the dog to you)x40]=$50 profit
Sell 400 hotdogs at $1.50 per dog=$600-[.75(costs of making the dog)x400=$300 profit

Not to mention the site is very very low on the traffic side.Having this offer open to more people would lead to much much more traffic.In turn new/er players that don't even know about the deal who are downloading and taking a look wouldn't say "no players,i'm not gonna deposit and play here"

[24hPOKER]

Ok, I'll get into details then...

We take out the same nominal amount from every raked pot regardless of limit. This means that a larger percentage of the rake goes to the BBJ at lower limits. The lowest chip we have is $0.25 and it is actually a great deal to change this.

Thus, we rake a larger percentage at lower limits but the BBJ part of it goes back to the player.

The reason we do not rake microlimit at all is because of this as well.

Another solution would be to let different levels win different percentages of the jackpot like UB does. But a lot of people like the idea that they can actually score BIG.

I hardly ever BS.

[24hPOKER]

I believe marketing, promotions and events could change over time as well as pricing of your services.

I am also of the opinion that I am able to offer alternatives better than others currently do even if people are pretty much satisfied. That's what competition is all about.

I am also quite certain I can do it at a lower price as well. As online poker markets mature prices will drop and quality will inrcrease.

At the moment there are sites that are better in many way. Like game selection, 3D graphics if you like that, chat support, milliondollar tournaments etc... We have a long way to go before we will be best in many areas. As of right now, we offer the lowest rakes.We have the best BBJ and some believe our software is excellent. .In the future we will have a larger game selection and our suport will be faster and better educated.

If we do not offer value for money in the future, you still have the choice to leave. is this deception?

Best regards

[chaos]

So you were able to make this flat-rate offer on an impulse.
Then you withdrew the offer saying your quota was filled but you "can't" say what the quota was.
And now you are not able to re-open the offer.

[Bama Boy]

I think his boss asked him what the !@#$ he was thinking and they cut it off to see what happens. Probably wise on their part.

I think this is a step in the right direction. $100 flat rate may not be the way to do it for everyone to be happy, but at least its a starting point. While I disagree with his longterm marketing, I do applaud the guts to take this kind of step. I think since he mentioned somewhere that they only have 89(?) money players, they were afraid to have a big rush of players jump on to this deal and probably lose money for the rest of the year.

I would think that they have only 15 or so in on this offer, (perhaps 25% of all their money players) and they want to see how they do with these. I hope the experiment works, even if I think the methods used for putting it into place were less than desirable. (Not bothering to mention the limited # wasn't good, but I don't think it was Stefan's intent, probably his boss)

But what do I know, I'm at work wishing I was playing.

[Jim Easton]

Next week we will change that and offer 10-handed HE. (as well as 2, 6 and 8)

I'm not sure you need both 8 and 10 handed, I definitely prefer 10 and look forward to that addition.

Another thing you might want to consider is adding the hole cards of called hands to the hand histories. The Party Poker hand histories thread would be a good place to start to see why. I have completely cashed out of both Party and Empire because of their actions regarding the hand histories.

Mini-review:

The software is "standard" Poker.com software. It is acceptable, but not spectacular. I do like the "no more blinds" option. Everyone is automatically set on "auto-post" and, when you get ready to leave, just select "no more blinds", and you sit-out when the BB gets to you. This is very nice, as there is no delay for people that won't set the auto-post on.

The only limit game going a little bit ago (9:00 a.m. PST) was a .25/50 game, so I played there a little bit to get the feel of things. There is NO rake at that limit.

[tdiddy]

I will further venture to guess that should it work out, and 24h starts siphoning business away from other card rooms, they'll start thinking:
"Damn you Stefan."

you are grossly overestimating the intelligence of the common man. i would venture that many online players don't even know that there is a rake. i mean, they cold call 2 bets in EP with 74o don't they? what makes you think they know what a rake is, much less what the effect of the rake is.

[crazy canuck]

My statement might be wrong, But its not ridiculously obvious if it is. Business decisions are more complex than "more players = more money". Hopefully, all goes well and we'll all be playing there in a month or two.

And Go Canucks Go!


http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/trans/fahr10.gif

[Emperor]

I think Stefan was reffering to the number of money players playing on the site at that particular moment. I would find it hard to believe that they don't have close to 1000 total money players. Their tournaments are always full, and they almost always have a higher limit O8 table going.

[tdiddy]

He is truely going where no site has gone before, and at least giving this a shot.

That is not true. I would agree if the offer was extended to all. But all he is doing right now is hiring props without calling them props. Except that the people who are participating are getting paid slightly less than what a prop would get paid. So, actually, one could argue that he is exploiting those who are participating in the deal.

[Graham]

So, actually, one could argue that he is exploiting those who are participating in the deal.

Nonsense!

Props have obligations; I signed up and I don't have any obligations to Stefan or 24hpoker - haven't even played a hand yet. All I can ever do is win from this arrangement. I choose!

G

[Graham]

I'm not going to go play your site because it currently has a small rake, because I know once you grow enough, you will raise it on me. Why download your software and suffer through few games and few players only to get exploited once your site is actually worth playing?

Your shrink should check this statement out.

This isn't a gimmick promotion - of all the promotions from online cardrooms, this is the furthest you can get from gimmicky. No flashing lights and bells and whistles and big prize pools with offers to go to the WSOP. Just a serious incentive for the more serious player.

G

[dogsballs]

Can we now refer to the 100 a month trial as the 'dux proposition'?

You trying to steal jek's credit..?!...

[Jimbo]

"This isn't a gimmick promotion - of all the promotions from online cardrooms, this is the furthest you can get from gimmicky. No flashing lights and bells and whistles and big prize pools with offers to go to the WSOP. Just a serious incentive for the more serious player."

It most certainly is a gimmick!!! Try advertising that anyone who wants an all you can eat buffet for $100 per month for the rest of 2003 can have it then after you get too many hungry people you say, "Oops! I really meant only the first 15 or 20 people Ha Ha sorry about that LOL!"

I tend to believe more potential players were lost than gained by this gimmick.

[Jim Easton]

But all he is doing right now is hiring props without calling them props.

I tend to agree with this.

Except that the people who are participating are getting paid slightly less than what a prop would get paid.

Well, Empire pays 50% of a players rake, this deal is much better than that. As far as comparing to sites that pay by the hour, we will need some actual data to make that comparison, but, if they get sufficient traffic, this could easily exceed any place that pays by the hour. This would have been worth over $4k to me in March at my regular site - about 40 hours a week, 2 15/30 tables at a time. No one pays that well by the hour.

[jek187]

Can we now refer to the 100 a month trial as the 'dux proposition'?

Stefan was the one to originally suggest $9.99/month. I then suggested $200/month. You Dux, posted this idea for tourneys, but when I suggested adding it for ring games, you said it wouldn't work. If anything, it should be called the Stefan proposition.

[Graham]

My, there's some sour grapes in this thread.

Totally understand being miffed about having the offer cut off, but it's absolutely not a gimmick. If I like the site and their games and play the games regularly, then I'm going to save some serious cake. You call it a gimmick if you want, I call it $$.

G

[Graham]

I missed the $9.99 one, but - jek!! - what the hell are you doing telling him to go up to 200..?!!... /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

[yct]

It seems funny to me that 2+2ers are willing to give Stefan $100 good old American dollars per month, and that's $1200 per year per person, but he still says no thanks.

I guess the fun money players have the best deal then, since they get to play their games for free while using same amount of bandwidth and server resources. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[RiverMel]

Bandwidth and server resources are negligible compared to the rake.

Stefan is willing to bet that the site will make more than $100 in rake for every person he denies the offer to. Personally, I think given the light traffic, need for people to start games, and general low likelihood that many 2+2ers who haven't alried tried 24hrpoker ever will without the offer, he is probably wrong about this, and should extend the offer to other players.

[Inthacup]

Empire pays 50% of a players rake

Could you provide a link for this? I've never heard of this.

[Bubmack]

I went to 24 hr poker last night to sign up. I already had the software downloaded, but I had never signed up. I looked at the games available and saw one table with one player. i looked in there and saw Jek 187. I chuckled to myself and decided I would like to send at least a message to the poor guy who was trying to get a table started.

So I went to signup. I put my name "Bubmack" - as the first stage of signing up and clicked "ok". However, my attempt to sign-up never registered. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif. (it may have been because I was simultaneously playing one NL tournament at Paradise. a 1-2 game at Party and a 1-2 game at True poker, while trying to accomplish this task on a dial up connection /forums/images/icons/smile.gif ) I decided to just pass on setting it up at that moment and decided to do it today before I started playing anywhere else - and lo and behold it the offer was renigged? Oh well - I tried /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

Bubs

[Jim Easton]

Could you provide a link for this?

No. I know a player who was a regular at Party who became a prop with Empire. He told me that is how they pay.

[Inthacup]

Ahhh, I didn't catch that this was a prop program. I stay away from prop playing like it's the plague.

[yct]

Personally, I think given the light traffic, need for people to start games, and general low likelihood that many 2+2ers who haven't alried tried 24hrpoker ever will without the offer, he is probably wrong about this, and should extend the offer to other players.

I think you could be right on this. He may be hurting their potential business by not extending this offer. But perhaps his boss does not like flat fee idea, so he's getting pressure from above to put this to a stop.

[tdiddy]

I stay away from prop playing like it's the plague.

Why is that, Inthacup?

[tdiddy]

If anything, it should be called the Stefan proposition.

Jek, come up for air every once in a while. You gonna suffocate, dude.

[tdiddy]

Actually, it should be called the Tdiddy proposition. When I first started playing online poker, I posted this question RGP. This was in September 2002.

Tdiddy Proposition (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;selm=d6bd8c97.0209030922.1a4bdcd8%40posting.goog le.com)

[tdiddy]

lo and behold it the offer was renigged?

So, does that make Stefan a re-nigger?

[24hPOKER]

Perhaps.
I will not give up thinking and pulling out arguments though.

[24hPOKER]

Well, the participants can choose to play any amount of time, any games, any levels, any tables. That's like calling any promotion encouraging people to play more a prop program.

[24hPOKER]

I really don't like the comparison with poker.com software but I am really biased. But it makes my heart ache.

I answered a similar post on pokerscene and added a features list for the software. I ll post it if u are interested.

[24hPOKER]

That's about right.

At least not for the time being.

[24hPOKER]

We have about 60-90 cash games players playing at the same time at peak hours. That is not the same as 90 cash players in total.

[Jim Easton]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I read the thread on PokerScene and agree with Mary that your software looks very similar to the Poker.com clones. I realize there are differences, but there are differences between the others who use it. Each site that uses the Poker.com software tweaks it a little.

Your method of posting blinds (effectively an auto-post until you select not posting blinds) is the best by far.

[Bama Boy]

Well I meant since I did miss out on this promotion, what incentive do I have doing business with someone who has admitted to deception? In addition to being a smaller site, why do I want to put my money into there?

I can respect Stefan because he comes on this forum and answers his critics and challenges. But this has no bearing on whether I trust him. He has said the rake will increase as the site gets popular. He intentionally left out the fact that the $100 fee rake deal was limited so they could limit it how they saw fit.

I wonder if those that signed up got the full "fine print" of the deal? What if the site wants to raise the $100 fee up to $125 because of "management's discretion"? Just because they DIDN'T say this, doesn't mean it may not apply. What Stefan says on this site may be important to their site, but it is by no means binding.

I wish their site well. I applaud Stefan's efforts to get more players. I'm just saying it all happened in a bad way for their site to get the best publicity it could have.

[lefty rosen]

I visited the site, and I will play there myself but I won't play headsup too often, too maniacs and a pro could crack me and I would say I am among the top low limit players online. Once this site has consistent shorttable action during peak North American hours(off peak European) count me in(shorttable is a much easier game to beat even with a maniac).

[Graham]

jek, you think too much...

[Graham]

A sane head.

...even for a canuck....jk... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Graham]

Oh, you get stars for that on pdid...

[Graham]

what incentive do I have doing business with someone who has admitted to deception? In addition to being a smaller site, why do I want to put my money into there?

"Admitted to deception" is kinda harsh for someone who's tried to make a step forward and help us (i.e. you and me &amp; 2+2 players/regulars/carpal tunnel's/whateveryouwanttocallus). Credit where credit's due, I say! I'll do business with the guy who tries. Hopefully this'll work; then we will all be able to take advantage.

G

[Jim Kuhn]

By opening up the offer the site would have been flooded with players and games would be available at all times. By closing the offer Stefan basically 'shut the floodgates'. Games will not be as readily available and the signees will not receive the game selection and rake reduction they wished for. Many will not even meet the $100 rake level to realize any savings.

Those people who 'missed out' may not be missing out at all. This all depends on the number that did sign up and if it is significant enough to keep games going at all hours.

It would be nice if other sites would expand on this concept and 'quota size'. I hope Torsten, ACR's General Manager, is monitoring this topic and the interest that has been generated. He does a great job of trying to please the players. I play many sites and ACR is the one that would come to mind to meet this offer without requiring quotas.

[Jim Kuhn]

Stefan SHOULD get credit for trying. But adding 'fine print' at a later date is not good for your image. Online poker is all about image. I would never have dreamed that I would have thousands of dollars in poker accounts in 'I don't even know what countries'! We have to trust not only in the sites keeping the games fair but also that our money will be there when we are ready to cash out.

You have to wonder what fine print will be added next? He really should 'step back and officially revise the rules'. These rules should state how long the signup period would be, length of the trial period, and any other 'fine print'. This would be fair not only to those that have signed up, but also to those that would consider doing so. It would also allow Stefan to 'think things through' and design the promotion to be fair to the players and also be economically feasible to his site.

I wish Stefan the best of luck in dealing with this situation. This concept is very popular and I am sure it is very controversial (sic)not only with Stefan's superiors but also with other competitors!

[jek187]

For just $1k/month, I'll plant my lips on your ass too.

[24hPOKER]

If and when this becomes a more public offer I promise to make the deal complete and with no added fine print.

It will probably not look the same as now in case we decide to try it out. As for now, I have been in contact with most of the participants and since there is really not much of a risk taking and they get such a sweet offer, NOONE has said anything near that they felt the slighest deceived. They seem to fully understand and accept the fact that they are pilots and grasp the concept that the deal is only plausible if they are flexible enough as well. Anyone who wants out of the deal has full freedom to quit at any time.

As to 'step back and officially revise the rules', it is exactly what I am doing. I am also revising price structure, risktaking and other things. That is really the purpose with this experiement.

If it turns out that people are dissatisfied with this format I will of course not open it up without having made some major changes. In addition I need to do some number crunching. Next step might be to not expand this offer at all. Or it could be to open up a similar offer for another group of people. The next step will not be to open up indefinately though. I have learnt something in this process and still there is more to learn. I sincerely do not believe this has hurt 24hPOKER. It has revealed a bit about how I work and reason. Some like it, others don't. I don't think anyone has ever felt that I deceived them on purpose though.

Best regards

[24hPOKER]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
By opening up the offer the site would have been flooded with players and games would be available at all times. By closing the offer Stefan basically 'shut the floodgates'. Games will not be as readily available and the signees will not receive the game selection and rake reduction they wished for. Many will not even meet the $100 rake level to realize any savings.

Those people who 'missed out' may not be missing out at all. This all depends on the number that did sign up and if it is significant enough to keep games going at all hours.

It would be nice if other sites would expand on this concept and 'quota size'. I hope Torsten, ACR's General Manager, is monitoring this topic and the interest that has been generated. He does a great job of trying to please the players. I play many sites and ACR is the one that would come to mind to meet this offer without requiring quotas.


[/ QUOTE ]

Most have already reached the $100 so you are in the wrong there.

You are right about the big drawback with the lack of game selection. However, even if people try 24hPOKER without this offer I can't see what they would loose. We still charge the lowest rake online.