Note to spaminator101

[BluffTHIS!]

spaminator,

I think that you are a sincere Christian trying to clarify and understand your beliefs and those of other Christians. So I put a question to you. If you had been taught the Christian faith only through word of mouth and did not have the bible, and wanted to be sure you got it all right, where would you look for guidance? Obviously to anything written by the apostles, but I have said you don't have the bible. Or even having the bible, you want to be sure you intrepret it correctly when there are so many different and conflicting interpretations. So where would you look for it? Wouldn't it make sense to be guided by what the majority of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation disciples of the apostles taught and wrote? Wouldn't this be considered highly authoritative since it was so chronologically close in time to the actual life of Jesus, similar to oral traditions of the american civil war passed down in families for the first 100 years or so after the deaths of those who participated (which brings it down to our grandparents' time)? And I mean the letters and books written by those people and not so-called new testament apochrypha purporting to be scripture such as the Gospel of James.

If you think that this seems a reasonable approach, then why not study the writings of the early Christians. Those who wrote before the date that protestants consider the start of the institutional catholic church that exists today. Search the net under "early church fathers" and "patristics" and see what you find. To be sure, there were disagreements and heresies even then, and as early as the time of St. Paul as he recounts in his letters in the new testament. But find out what the majority view of the early christians was. If you do this, along with prayer for God's grace of discernment, it will greatly advance your faith even if you never accept the catholic doctrines that I believe. I put it to you that you cannot really know what protestant doctrine is, without also understanding what preceded it. And since protestant denominations claim that the reformation recaptured the beliefs and practices of the early church before the "institutional" catholic church came into being around 350 A.D., then the proof of whether that is the case should be found in the writings of those early christians prior to that date. You might be surprised at what you find.

Link (http://www.catholicfirst.com/churchfathersindex.cfm)

[spaminator101]

Bluff this, I have nothing against catholics. I do beleive that some of your beleifs are slightly faulty but you and I are both Christians none the less. I will look at that website and stuff later as i am hard pressed for time.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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Bluff this, I have nothing against catholics. I do beleive that some of your beleifs are slightly faulty but you and I are both Christians none the less. I will look at that website and stuff later as i am hard pressed for time.

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BluffTHIS!'s links are pretty good.

I've actually been reading the epistle of Barnabas for a few days now and am about halfway through it, but have found some interesting parts to it. (though I'm sure I'll get to that part where it ruined it's chances of ever being canonical soon)

I just can't believe BluffTHIS! is a devoted Catholic.

I mean, the only reason I would want to be catholic would be to abuse the system.

Spend Friday night to Saturday afternoon sleeping with prostitutes, rock up to confession on saturday evening, 5 hail mary's, 5 our fathers, eucharist in the morning, sins forgiven.

Sweet deal, this Mary worship has it's plusses. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[David Sklansky]

"I mean, the only reason I would want to be catholic would be to abuse the system.

Spend Friday night to Saturday afternoon sleeping with prostitutes, rock up to confession on saturday evening, 5 hail mary's, 5 our fathers, eucharist in the morning, sins forgiven.

Sweet deal, this Mary worship has it's plusses."

I'm confused again. Protestants can't do that also?

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
"I mean, the only reason I would want to be catholic would be to abuse the system.

Spend Friday night to Saturday afternoon sleeping with prostitutes, rock up to confession on saturday evening, 5 hail mary's, 5 our fathers, eucharist in the morning, sins forgiven.

Sweet deal, this Mary worship has it's plusses."

I'm confused again. Protestants can't do that also?

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd harder to con God than one of his employees.

+ The fact that when a protestant prays they are relying on faith and scripture that their sins will be forgiven in their account in heaven, wheras Catholicism gives conrcete assurance of forgiveness.

What the priest tells you to do in confession, if you do it, by his authority, your sins will be forgiven.

Sweetest deal ever IMHO. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[David Sklansky]

+" The fact that when a protestant prays they are relying on faith and scripture that their sins will be forgiven in their account in heaven, wheras Catholicism gives conrcete assurance of forgiveness."

Don't really understand the difference. But I am sure that BluffThis will be weighing in on this shortly and will explain it further.

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
+" The fact that when a protestant prays they are relying on faith and scripture that their sins will be forgiven in their account in heaven, wheras Catholicism gives conrcete assurance of forgiveness."

Don't really understand the difference. But I am sure that BluffThis will be weighing in on this shortly and will explain it further.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is having a reciept to having 'his word that it will be done'.

It's always nice to have a reciept.

And I suspect BluffTHIS! is hard at work typing a response now, with Luke open and ready to cite Fatima and Guadalupe at will. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
+" The fact that when a protestant prays they are relying on faith and scripture that their sins will be forgiven in their account in heaven, wheras Catholicism gives conrcete assurance of forgiveness."

Don't really understand the difference. But I am sure that BluffThis will be weighing in on this shortly and will explain it further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Confession is the normal mannter in which serious sins, which we call mortal sins, are forgiven, but not the only way. What is called "perfect contrition", which means being truly sorry for your sins because they have offended God and not partially because you fear punishment for those sins, is sufficient in itself, and that means for non-catholics as well. However, since it is extremely hard to be sure one is perfectly contrite since a person pscyhologically is not the best judge of himself often, the normal manner is confession in which that perfect contrition is not necessary. However one thing is necessary SDM, and that is some level of sincerity. Just because you think you con a priest who is required to take at face value your false claims of repentence and grant absolution, you have not conned God and have not really obtained absolution when you have no sincere sorrow and no intent to try to avoid such sin in the future. You have only compounded the original offenses.

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
+" The fact that when a protestant prays they are relying on faith and scripture that their sins will be forgiven in their account in heaven, wheras Catholicism gives conrcete assurance of forgiveness."

Don't really understand the difference. But I am sure that BluffThis will be weighing in on this shortly and will explain it further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Confession is the normal mannter in which serious sins, which we call mortal sins, are forgiven, but not the only way. What is called "perfect contrition", which means being truly sorry for your sins because they have offended God and not partially because you fear punishment for those sins, is sufficient in itself, and that means for non-catholics as well. However, since it is extremely hard to be sure one is perfectly contrite since a person pscyhologically is not the best judge of himself often, the normal manner is confession in which that perfect contrition is not necessary. However one thing is necessary SDM, and that is some level of sincerity. Just because you think you con a priest who is required to take at face value your false claims of repentence and grant absolution, you have not conned God and have not really obtained absolution when you have no sincere sorrow and no intent to try to avoid such sin in the future. You have only compounded the original offenses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh but what if I take 15 minutes before the church opens and think about how I have offended God and when I go to confession, I carry TRUE guilt like some protestantys have when they ahve to pray directly to God asking for forgeveness for failing him?

It is human nature to be forgetful and lapse into sinful ways, so I could be truhful and repentatnt on Saturday but but by Wednesday paying prostitutes x $ per hour to act out some kinky Roman Emperor fantasy with me in a high class bordello.

I so wish I was catholic. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[BluffTHIS!]

Now you have changed what you said before, which was an insincere attempt to "abuse the system" in your words. Just because your human nature is weak and conditioned by the force of your bad habits which means you will often continue to fail, that does not change the fact that God will forgive you again and again as long as you sincerely are willing to repent and begin again and again. But a sincere willingness to begin again presupposes that you have an intent to avoid what might easily lead you into sin. Not cancelling the porno channels in your cable package that you added or continuing to frequent area with prostitutes would be evidence that you were not sincerely making such an attempt. Christianity is a good deal. Why not take it.

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Now you have changed what you said before, which was an insincere attempt to "abuse the system" in your words. Just because your human nature is weak and conditioned by the force of your bad habits which means you will often continue to fail, that does not change the fact that God will forgive you again and again as long as you sincerely are willing to repent and begin again and again. But a sincere willingness to begin again presupposes that you have an intent to avoid what might easily lead you into sin. Not cancelling the porno channels in your cable package that you added or continuing to frequent area with prostitutes would be evidence that you were not sincerely making such an attempt. Christianity is a good deal. Why not take it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely wish to get to the bottom of this confession business.

It was my understanding that once a priest absolves you after confession, then you are absolved, irregardless of whether you were truly sorry or just acting.

Besides, even if one were acting and was "good" from saturday evening after confession until after they accept the eucharist Sunday morning, what's the worst that can happen to them in the afterlife?

A bit of purgatory at most right?

[BluffTHIS!]

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It was my understanding that once a priest absolves you after confession, then you are absolved, irregardless of whether you were truly sorry or just acting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already replied to this above. The answer is no you can't con God.

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Besides, even if one were acting and was "good" from saturday evening after confession until after they accept the eucharist Sunday morning, what's the worst that can happen to them in the afterlife?

A bit of purgatory at most right?

[/ QUOTE ]

H E L L

[sexdrugsmoney]

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[ QUOTE ]
It was my understanding that once a priest absolves you after confession, then you are absolved, irregardless of whether you were truly sorry or just acting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already replied to this above. The answer is no you can't con God.

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, even if one were acting and was "good" from saturday evening after confession until after they accept the eucharist Sunday morning, what's the worst that can happen to them in the afterlife?

A bit of purgatory at most right?

[/ QUOTE ]

H E L L

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Can you cite some catholic sources?

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you cite some catholic sources?

[/ QUOTE ]

On this forum I'm it.

If that's not enough for you then an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"1490 The movement of return to God, called conversion and repentance, entails sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future. Conversion touches the past and the future and is nourished by hope in God's mercy.

1492 Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called "perfect" contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called "imperfect."

Thus if you are merely "acting" you are not truly repentent and your motives certainly do not arise from faith and neither do you have a purpose to sin no more. Thus you will not really obtain absolution from God by lying to the priest. What is your problem here? Do you really think you can fool God?

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
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Can you cite some catholic sources?

[/ QUOTE ]

On this forum I'm it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No es suficiente

[ QUOTE ]

If that's not enough for you then an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"1490 The movement of return to God, called conversion and repentance, entails sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future. Conversion touches the past and the future and is nourished by hope in God's mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is biblical although the scriptures say it simpler:

Repentance = turn away from the old and becoming a new creature in Christ and bearing good fruits as opposed to worldly ones.

This is not what I'm asking.

As a Christian it should be a 'given' that you have 'turned over a new leaf'. (even though humans constantly fail, it is expected)

[ QUOTE ]

1492 Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called "perfect" contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called "imperfect."

[/ QUOTE ]

From the Wiki:

[ QUOTE ]

Imperfect contrition (also known as attrition) in catholic theology is a desire not to sin for a reason other than love of God. Imperfect contrition is contrasted with perfect contrition, as practiced in the Catholic sacrement of Reconciliation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's dig a little deeper:

From New Advent (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/500901.htm):

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I answer that, Confession is an act of virtue, and is part of a sacrament. In so far as it is an act of virtue, it has the property of being meritorious, and thus is of no avail without charity, which is the principle of merit. But in so far as it is part of a sacrament, it subordinates the penitent to the priest who has the keys of the Church, and who by means of the confession knows the conscience of the person confessing. In this way it is possible for confession to be in one who is not contrite, for he can make his sins known to the priest, and subject himself to the keys of the Church: and though he does not receive the fruit of absolution then, yet he will begin to receive it, when he is sincerely contrite, as happens in the other sacraments: wherefore he is not bound to repeat his confession, but to confess his lack of sincerity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fictional scenario: I'm catholic, Friday night, I go to this high quality whorehouse and have an orgy with 4 of the hottest escorts money can buy. I'm telling you, it cost a fortune but was worth every penny. Lesbianism abounds.

Anyway, all good things ...

It's saturday, I rock up to confession, enter the confessional "Bless me father for I have sinned" and continue to tell him the events while trying to conceal the smile in my voice from the pleasant memories but at the same time do have a pit in my stomach that it's a shitty thing I'm doing.

I'm not really sorry because I enjoyed myself and do desire to do it again, but I do feel guilt and shame, especially here on my knees confessing my sins to a man who we'll assume lives a chaste life. (we'll assume he's one of the good priests and the alter boys of that parish are safe)

So anyway x hail marys, x our fathers, and I'm guessing some rosary?

I stay 'clean' for saturday night, and am at mass at 8 the next morning for the Eucharist.

Now, according to the quoted text above, I'm forgiven for my sins, although not for my lack of sincerity (or 'questionable incontrite sincerity' at the least) for which I'll have to confess to in the future. (+ I will never have to confess for future orgies and drug use since as written above, confession is for past, present, and future)

But, lets say I die before I can confess my lack of sincerity that time, doesn't the 'last rites' absolve me of any unconfessed sins?

I ask this in sincerity seeking to know more about Catholicism.