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View Full Version : Defense against Stop-and-Go?


09-07-2005, 08:23 AM
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t3580)
SB (t2000)
BB (t4270)
UTG (t3650)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1200</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t800.

Flop: (t2075) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t3045 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t5120

Played this hand tonight in a $22 SNG at Pokerstars. I had the strong feeling that the BB was pulling a stop and go, because he thought a long time (into the think tank) before calling, then went all in relatively quickly on the flop. BB is a smart, tricky player capable of bluffing in the right situation. For example, on an earlier hand as BB (4-handed) it was folded around to the SB who raised 3x the BB. BB raised all in (had SB covered), SB folded, and BB showed 62o.

I felt there was a good chance the BB was bluffing in this situation, but felt I was playing well and didn't want to put my whole tournament at risk with potentially 10, 4 or 0 outs.

Any suggestions for recognizing and defending against a stop-and-go? Would you have called in this situation?

Just for kicks I ran a quick SHAL with a 30% chance he had a T or small-med pair, 20% Kx, 20% flush draw/undercard semibluff, and 30% pure bluff. These numbers gave me just about a 50% chance of winning, although this varies widely based on the percentage he's bluffing.

jon462
09-07-2005, 08:30 AM
call? thats your only defense.

I have people defend my stop and goes all the time by calling (with whiffed AK's, etc.).. sometimes they are right and still ahead, sometiems they arent. cela vie.

tigerite
09-07-2005, 08:32 AM
The better defence, which I like a lot more, is to PUSH PREFLOP.

Freudian
09-07-2005, 08:32 AM
I am not sure he is pushing on any flop here, he has way too many chips for you to assume he is pulling a stop'n'go. And I would definately fold here. I can't see you being ahead nearly often enough for a call to evne be an option.

And I definately push preflop here.

tigerite
09-07-2005, 08:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure he is pushing on any flop here, he has way too many chips for you to assume he is pulling a stop'n'go. And I would definately fold here. I can't see you being ahead nearly often enough for a call to evne be an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't call this flop and he knows it - you also can't call if he comes back over the top preflop. You also have less than 10BB and the SB has basically 4.5BB.

This is a blatant shove PF every time for me, I must be missing something if it's not.

bennies
09-07-2005, 08:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]

This is a blatant shove PF every time for me, I must be missing something if it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll look up blatant, but I agree unless it means "horrible" or something...

09-07-2005, 08:44 AM
How many -- or rather how few -- chips do you need to pull a stop&amp;go? Is that just a move you make as the BB with *fewer* chips than the PFR or would you use it when threatening the PFR with elimination?

At this stage of the tournament, blinds were being taken down by 2.5xBB or 3xBB raises preflop and I was keeping consistent with that. Although in hindsight pushing preflop would've been a better play.

Freudian
09-07-2005, 08:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How many -- or rather how few -- chips do you need to pull a stop&amp;go? Is that just a move you make as the BB with *fewer* chips than the PFR or would you use it when threatening the PFR with elimination?

At this stage of the tournament, blinds were being taken down by 2.5xBB or 3xBB raises preflop and I was keeping consistent with that. Although in hindsight pushing preflop would've been a better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had 2500 chips I could imagine it. But as the chipleader? I think AT, a lower pocket pair, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifx /images/graemlins/diamond.gif are realistic holdings for the villain here. Basically the only thing we know is that he doesn't have a K.

09-07-2005, 09:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If he had 2500 chips I could imagine it. But as the chipleader? I think AT, a lower pocket pair, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifx/images/graemlins/diamond.gif are realistic holdings for the villain here. Basically the only thing we know is that he doesn't have a K.

[/ QUOTE ]

As chipleader he can threaten me with elimination. It's also the bubble and since most flops miss most hands, he has better FE by betting the flop than by raising preflop. I think based on his earlier play he was very capable of playing this as a bluff, whether or not it was one. The flop was dangerous enough that even if he didn't have a piece of it, he knew I couldn't call.

Would KQ and KJ be possibilities also? Even flopping top set you wouldn't want to give your opponent a free draw to a flush or straight. This is still less likely than AT, Ax or smaller pocket pairs, though. And I'm sure he definitely didn't have KK, TT, or KT.

Next time I'll have to open push preflop to avoid this situation, and if I happen to run into a monster 4-handed, then so be it.

Nicholasp27
09-07-2005, 09:17 AM
it's prolly a stop-n-go

however, u raised 1/3 your stack pf and didn't push...push if u wanna raise 1/3 your stack pf...

jon462
09-07-2005, 09:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The better defence, which I like a lot more, is to PUSH PREFLOP.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes of course you are right. I was just answering the OPs question.