Please evaluate my play on this hand.

[exist47]

I was playing 3-6 at Viejas. The table was mostly loose-passive. I was dealt A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif on the button. 5 callers to me, I raise, SB calls, BB folds, everyone else calls. 15 SB's in the pot and 7 players seeing the flop.

8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

It's checked around to me. I bet (1.for value 2.possibly for a free card), i'm pretty sure everyone called (!). The turn is:

8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

Not my favorite, if it's checked to me, I plan on taking my freecard. It's checked to the player just in front of me. He bets, but he's a novice and bluffs far too often and has no grasp of strategy or odds. I'm sure he thought "hmm...maybe everyone will fold". I call and 3 others call, including SB. River:

5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

It's checked to the last round bettor and he folds (?). I bet and am immediantely raised by the SB. The other two players fold. I didn't expect a raise. This guy appears to be a regular here, and seems to understand some basics of hold em, so i thought he might raise if he hit a flush or higher. I was particularly worried he may have hit a full house though. I had seen some freaky hands played that day and just wanted to win the huge pot in front of me. Reraise or call? I call.

How can i improve my play? thx for any responses. results coming soon.

[DaNoob]

I would bet for value here. More times than not, he's got a weaker hand.

[lil']

Your play pre-flop, on the flop, and on the turn is good.

As for the river...

"I had seen some freaky hands played that day and just wanted to win the huge pot in front of me."
You calling or re-raising will make no difference for you winning the pot or not. Your thinking seems to imply that by calling you will have a better chance to win. The real question you should be asking is, "I likely have the best hand, how can I get more money?" And the answer is, obviously, by re-raising.

If this guy does by some chance have a full house, then he should have raised the turn to get a lot more money in the pot. Not raising the turn with a full house would be a big mistake, in my opinion.

[exist47]

I know calling or raising wasn't going to affect my chances of winning the pot. I'm a new player and I just got a little nervous and wanted the hand to be over. Based on the betting pattern, the SB probably didn't have the full house. Reraising probably was the correct play.

The SB actually raised me with trip 8's (!). I certainly wouldn't have expected a raise with that hand against a rather dangerous board. He should have raised the turn. Anyways, thx for the advice guys, i'll reraise next time. I think I have a general problem of not betting for value on the river. I'll try to correct that next time I play. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[Tyler Durden]

Pre-flop: I would call, not raise. The reason for raising is because you want to keep the pot shorthanded. You can't do that here b/c the players who limped in aren't going to fold for one more bet. Something to think about.

Flop: The bet is almost automatic b/c you were the PFR and also b/c you're getting good value on it. You have a double gutter and a draw to the supernuts.

You have to call on the turn.

As for the river, after you get checkraised, you have to 3-bet here. You have no reason to fear a full house b/c this guy just woke up on the river. You would have heard from him earlier if he had two pair or trips. He likely has a smaller flush. I'd call if he 4-bet.

[Inthacup]

Pre-flop: I would call, not raise. The reason for raising is because you want to keep the pot shorthanded. You can't do that here b/c the players who limped in aren't going to fold for one more bet. Something to think about.


There's more than 1 reason to raise preflop. If it was AJun, I would agree with this logic, however, since it's suited, I think the raise is good poker. You should raise preflop with this hand because it's probably the best, and because it has several hands it can draw to. Almost every time he's got the best Ace. In addition, he does get good odds to draw to a flush or strait.

[bernie]

"The reason for raising is because you want to keep the pot shorthanded. "

is this the only reason you raise preflop? id study preflop raising a little more. this was a good raise.

b

[34TheTruth34]

Pre-flop: I would call, not raise. The reason for raising is because you want to keep the pot shorthanded. You can't do that here b/c the players who limped in aren't going to fold for one more bet. Something to think about.

Absolutely wrong. This is a perfect raising hand in a loose passive 3/6 game in LP with multiple callers. I make this raise with as little as JTs, AJs is a no-brainer. It has way too much value to not raise with. Do you not raise with AA in the BB just because nobody will fold??

[Clarkmeister]

You played it perfectly til the river, where you have a clear raise. Fearing a full house when there are perfectly reasonable hands he might raise you with (trips, smaller flush) is unreasonable, unless this *specific* player is particularly weak.

[Homer]

You played it nicely until the river. You must three-bet. It is very unlikely that SB has a full-house, based on his play during the hand. All he did was call until the river, then came with a check-raise out of nowhere. If he had a full-house he would have bet or raised earlier in the hand (unless he has 55, in which case he is not a good player). Also, he likely would have bet out on the river rather than checkraise.

Look at it from his perspective. On the river, everyone checked to you. You made what in his mind was a bet with a weak hand, a last ditch effort to steal the pot. He probably checkraised to shut out the rest of the field with a decent but not great hand, because he thought you didn't have much. I wouldn't be surprised if he had as little as Qx. He could certainly have much better (trips, smaller flush, straight), but it is still unlikely that he has you beat.

-- Homer

[eMarkM]

Preflop: good raise to punish loose limpers and get money in the pot if you hit a A, J or diamond draw.

Flop: good bet. You have nut draw and overcard, no one seems to want the pot.

Turn: good call, obvioulsly. You don't want to raise and lose customers and be HU against someone who has an 8.

River: Obvious bet, but when SB raises what can we put him on? I would think he'd been more aggressive on the turn and c/r then if he had an 8. I don't see 55 sticking around. You'd have heard form TT or QQ earlier. Raise and if re-raised, then I would guess he really does have a boat and just call. But I'd expect to take it down.

[Tyler Durden]

That's a bad question. Of course I'll raise with AA in the BB. Don't tell me you don't see the diff. between AA in the BB and AJs on the button after 5 limpers?

[34TheTruth34]

That's a bad question. Of course I'll raise with AA in the BB. Don't tell me you don't see the diff. between AA in the BB and AJs on the button after 5 limpers?

It was a rhetorical (did I spell that right?) question. I have a friend that I play 3/6 with who is a good player and a steady winner, and the only problems I ever see with his game is that he tips like $2-$3 for real big pots and doesn't raise with AA or KK in the blinds because "nobody will fold". But he doesn't post here or put as much thought into the game as we do, so I cut him some slack there.

Of course there is a difference between the two situations, but I think the principles are the same. You need to get that extra 5 to 1 on your money with a raise. The hand plays well multiway and has a lot of value. You usually have the best hand (though if the game is loose-passive there is always the possibility that some weak-tight player limped with a bigger ace) or at least the most playable hand. Not to mention the value you get from raising. The field will put you on a strong hand for raising a bunch of players. This may get people to fold hands they shouldn't or it may get you a free card that you otherwise might not have gotten (Roy Cooke talks a lot about these type of situations in his book). You have a huge overlay, so get the money in.

[Clarkmeister]

Not raising AJs on the button after 5 limpers is a significant mistake.

But don't take my word for it:

http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=genpok&Number=94072&page=& view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

and

http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=genpok&Number=94169&Forum= genpok&Words=ATs%20answer&Match=And&Searchpage=2&L imit=25&Old=allposts&Main=94168&Search=true#Post94 169

Must read. These threads are like a who's who of all-time great 2+2 posters too. Great stuff.

[Inthacup]

THANK YOU. I tried searching for that thread, but couldn't find it. That was a very interesting thread.

BTW, who was that guy posing as Dynasty?

[Tyler Durden]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The hand plays well multiway and has a lot of value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that a reason you'd want to limp? To make it easy for the blinds to see the flop?

[Inthacup]

To make it easy for the blinds to see the flop?

Realistically, the only one who is going to have a hard time calling is SB. BB will call with almost anything because of the odds he's getting. Which would you rather have with this hand: 6 players(excluding you) for 2 bets or 7 for 1?

[Bubmack]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Isn't that a reason you'd want to limp? To make it easy for the blinds to see the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

lets see - would you rather limp and have 6 opponents with 7 sbs in the middle with the best hand preflop

or have 4 opponents with 10 sbs in the middle with the best hand preflop.

The key you have the best hand. AJ is ok multi-way - but it is also pretty good shorthanded too. Punish them preflop for their loose out of position calls.

Now if you had a hand that only plays well multi-way - like 8,9s - then a limp optimizes the value of the play.

Also, it would be a severe error to let the bilinds play cheaply or for free when you are holding such a strong hand in great position.

Bubs

[Dynasty]

BTW, who was that guy posing as Dynasty?

I'm not a big fan of Sklansky's quizzes. But, that one was fantastic and made me rethink a lot about late position play.