Trench warfare

[Matt Flynn]

Playing 10-25 last night, 7-handed, no fish, three world series bracelet winners at the table, and Greg Raymer has yet to move to Wake Forest and join our game. I have 5K and am smothered and covered by the relevant opponents.

Fold to me on the button. I raise to $75 with J9s. I have entered maybe 2 of 7-8 times first-in from the button. Small blind, an excellent NL player, calls. Big blind has won three major tournaments in the past year and has not gotten out of line since I sat down. He raises to $300. This is annoying. I may not be the smartest cowboy in the world (or even a cowboy), but this ain't my first rodeo and I know bullshit when I smell it. I tank. What to do, what to do. Raise now? Call and let him bluff into me twice, raising the turn big if he doesn't hit? Hmmm. When in doubt, look left. Small blind is clearly contemplating a reraise. And he looks really, really calm. Sigh.

Fold. Small blind raises to $825. Big blind does the frustration eye-roll without moving his eyes, mucks. Small blind flashes a 4 and folds, says to big blind that's the second time he's gotten out of line tonight.

The dealer cocks, fires again. We play on.

[ZeroHour]

Very entertaining read, sir. However, this quote makes me want to ask a simple question:

[ QUOTE ]
... 7-handed, no fish, three world series bracelet winners at the table ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a very good game to sit in? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

- ZeroHour

[BobboFitos]

poker is all about game selection, matt.

[Matt Flynn]

Yes....yes it was.

The sushi was delivered an hour later. I ate mine with extra wasabi on a gutshot.

[JMP300z]

but would the SB have made the move if you had?? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

noway to know for sure i guess.

-JP

[AZK]

no, he wouldn't.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
no, he wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if he had a hand with a 4 in it.

[Matt Flynn]

Unlikely, but he is capable of it, especially if I flat called. In fact if I were holding AA or KK ther I would definitely have flat called after seeing him.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a very good game to sit in?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes....yes it was.

[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe so, but what about seat selection? I would think you would need some weak players to your immediate right to put the "excelent" sb on your left.

What do you think of sb showing (other than it made for a good post)? I can think of all kinds of psychological impacts, but I am not sure any of them is better than just keeping him in the dark or in doubt.

btw, the BB's reraise is such a tourney play. Was this a good game because the tourney players were not adjusting properly for deep stack cash play?

[thatpfunk]

I know I am not the only one who would be extremely interested to hear more hands from this game, especially considering you called it a "good".

[Matt Flynn]

Good point about seat selection. Not much choice there - by convention we are assigned seats as we come in and do not change.

As far as him showing, not much to say except that was half the fun.

The tourney player is just that: a gifted tournament player. Cash games not as good, although he is no slouch and definitely not afraid to stick his chips in.

Matt

[chuddo]

gracz or mizrachi?

also, i second the comment about posting some other interesting hands from this game.

[derick]

Very entertaining read! Thanks for posting.


But I don't understand it.

I've never been to the rodeo and I am one of the dumber cowboys out there.

Can someone explain how the OP knows that the $300 reraise is bull from a player who hasn't gotten out of line since the OP sat down?

I guess this is obvious to everyone else here but how can the villan win 3 major tournements and be transparent and readable?

Thanks in advance for answering my dumb questions.

derick

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
gracz

[/ QUOTE ]obviously.

[chuddo]

thats who i assumed it was. but why obviously?

mizrachi won the 2k nl event at the five diamond,
the mirage hu tourney, and the la poker classic main event all within the last year.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]


Can someone explain how the OP knows that the $300 reraise is bull from a player who hasn't gotten out of line since the OP sat down?

I guess this is obvious to everyone else here but how can the villan win 3 major tournements and be transparent and readable?


[/ QUOTE ]

It goes fold to the button who raises 3BB, call, raise to 12BB (16:9 for the first caller). What hands makes sense here? (Button is a small stack on this table with 200BB).

This sort of squeeze is not uncommon in tournaments where stacks are much shorter and thus pre flop folding equity much higher. Also, in tournaments, picking up chips without a showdown is much more valuable, and stealing pots pre flop is a tournament skill that is worth a lot. I think a lot of tournament players have a hard time getting away from the fundamental ideas that make them winning tournament players. Maybe they occasionally just slip and make a play out of reflex even though they do have a good understanding of the basic differences in the game (though it is unlikely their understanding will be as deep as someone who focusses more on ring games, assuming they are in the same neighborhood of inate tallent). Or maybe they don't bother really exploring the subtleties since, damnit, they are great NL players as attested by their NL tourney success. NLH is just NLH, isn't it?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
thats who i assumed it was. but why obviously?

mizrachi won the 2k nl event at the five diamond,
the mirage hu tourney, and the la poker classic main event all within the last year.

[/ QUOTE ]matt is from north carolina... hes said this a bunch of times on here.... he was even bragging about a certain someone from his hometown who won a big tourney after the the PPM.

[chuddo]

ah, gotcha. didn't know if this was being played out in vegas or la, what with the "three world series bracelet winners at our table". didn't understood what the raymer moving to wake forest was until now.

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
This sort of squeeze is not uncommon in tournaments where stacks are much shorter and thus pre flop folding equity much higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen a few posts here recently touting the squeeze in a ring game situation. In the OP is it only a "bad line" against top shelf opposition?

I understand why it has more value in a tourney, but isn't this a viable weapon in a rang game as well?

I need to clear this up before I go bluffing my stack off tonight...

Thanks,

Marlow

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Can someone explain how the OP knows that the $300 reraise is bull from a player who hasn't gotten out of line since the OP sat down?

I guess this is obvious to everyone else here but how can the villan win 3 major tournements and be transparent and readable?


[/ QUOTE ]

It goes fold to the button who raises 3BB, call, raise to 12BB (16:9 for the first caller). What hands makes sense here? (Button is a small stack on this table with 200BB).

This sort of squeeze is not uncommon in tournaments where stacks are much shorter and thus pre flop folding equity much higher. Also, in tournaments, picking up chips without a showdown is much more valuable, and stealing pots pre flop is a tournament skill that is worth a lot. I think a lot of tournament players have a hard time getting away from the fundamental ideas that make them winning tournament players. Maybe they occasionally just slip and make a play out of reflex even though they do have a good understanding of the basic differences in the game (though it is unlikely their understanding will be as deep as someone who focusses more on ring games, assuming they are in the same neighborhood of inate tallent). Or maybe they don't bother really exploring the subtleties since, damnit, they are great NL players as attested by their NL tourney success. NLH is just NLH, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply. I'm learning a ton here. Sorry for disturbing this thread with questions that are obvious to everyone else.

The Villan puts in the 12 BB reraise with a weak holding as a bluff. He could have A6o or 2 blank cards because he assumes that the button and SB will fold their rather weak holdings. The BB assumes that the Button made a raise to steal the blinds with a weakish holding and the Button can't call the raise with the SB still to act behind him squeezing the SB out. (Like in HoH)

But the BB loses out because both the SB and the Button don't buy it. The threat of busting out of a tournement isn't there with 200BB behind in a ring game.

What I don't get is:

How does the OP and the SB *know* that BB is bluffing with the standard squeeze play and does not have a legitimate hand like a big pair?

Is it just experience?

It looks kinda like magic to me. Reading this makes me see how far I have to go.

derick

[AZK]

They don't know, they just assume. Just like people assume when it's folded to the button and he raises that he is stealing...

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This sort of squeeze is not uncommon in tournaments where stacks are much shorter and thus pre flop folding equity much higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen a few posts here recently touting the squeeze in a ring game situation. In the OP is it only a "bad line" against top shelf opposition?

I understand why it has more value in a tourney, but isn't this a viable weapon in a rang game as well?

I need to clear this up before I go bluffing my stack off tonight...

Thanks,

Marlow

[/ QUOTE ]

it definately has it's uses... I squeeze every now and then, but the situation arises much more shorthanded then full.

[Matt Flynn]

AZK,

Play a few hours of live no limit and watch a medium-loose weaker player's every move (looser so you can get more data for the same amount of time). Try to guess what he has when he looks at his cards, when he bets, when he is contemplating and so forth. Watch how he puts his chips in. Watch how he looks at his opponents. After a few hours you will be able to guess his holdings remarkably well.

Matt

[JMP300z]

[ QUOTE ]

How does the OP and the SB *know* that BB is bluffing with the standard squeeze play and does not have a legitimate hand like a big pair?

Is it just experience?

It looks kinda like magic to me. Reading this makes me see how far I have to go.

derick

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically just experience. All those things matt said become second nature. The more hands you see and pay attention to the more your brain assimilates data. Watch every showndown hand. Watch every non showdown hand...does the player look smug that he just won, relieved he just won, sad that the pot ended etc, just as much info there as a showndown hand. You watch everything yet can still carry a conversation with the guy across the table. If you pay attention to posture, hand motions, how they grab their chips, where they look etc you get a feel for every minute detail of how they act.

Im not saying you go "oh hes holding his breath and lifting his arm 6 inches-> therefore..." although you kinda do with the weakest players, but it really gets second nature over time. It gets to the point vs weaker players where see them look at their hand, limp, look around, and you know, i mean certainty absolutely KNOW they have black kings, not red, black. Agaisnt better/ more experienced/controlled players, it takes a little bit more. You have to know if they are capable of false reads, if the money means something to them, how theyve been running lately, are they leaving soon etc. Timing is important too, if you can align your brain w/ how the opponent thinks its almost like you can guess the thoughts that ran through his head and figure out the timing of his bet and what it means (figure out if they are deciding between calling and raising, calling and folding or just not thinking and calling)

In this case, Matt probably didnt know for sure that the guy didnt have a big hand....He probably couldnt list a few tells out of Caro to explain why....call it more of his brain subconsciously assimilating everything he knows and then just giving him a feeling. Experience.

Some good advice when getting started is to begin with 1 player...possibly to your immediate left or right...then expand out. Pay attention to how many hands they play, what they raise from what spots, how often they complete the small blind, how often they CR what hands they do it w/ etc etc. etc....find out basically what they are capable of...are they predictable or not. Eventually you can typify players and that does a lot of the "making reads" work for you.

-JP

[derick]

Thanks for the helpful advice! You guys are great. I'm touched by how helpful this forum is for my development as a player. Feel free to hit me up for a beer if you're in the Toronto/Hamilton/Ancaster area.

[mgsimpleton]

group hug?

[Niwa]

good post.

[hank102977]

Matt,
What do you think the BB will most likely do in this spot with AA? Also, whatever the answer is, is it wrong to think that he should usually mimic this action when he tries to steal?

- Chris

[arod15]

Push there if you think the guy has the same read as you push he will fold.

[AZK]

Matt,

Would SB call/raise/fold if you had called? Is calling an option there with you? I think you are going to tell me calling is bad there, but neither of you have really identified your hands and you have position and a deep enough stack, eh?

[Matt Flynn]

With AA he would fire if he thought I was interested in my hand, and often anyways. He bluffs enough to raise with AA vs the other way around.

[Matt Flynn]

Calling is an excellent option if SB will fold. But it's tough to rely on good karma and reads against two players sitting 1 and 2 to my left who are both tricky and skilled, position or no. If SB will overcall my call, I reraise. If SB will fold, I make more money by calling, but that only works if I can read BB correctly later in the hand. More risk, more reward. The SB made it tough there. I correctly read his betting intention and certainty but not his reason.

Still keeping the day job....

Matt

[Mikey]

good game selection. How did the rest of the session go?

[ilya]

Not bad....but not as awesome as this would have been:

you call...SB re-squeeze-raises, BB flat-calls, you re-re-squeeze-raise, SB calls, BB re-re-re-squeeze-raises, you call, SB calls, sushi arrives, you decide to chop the blinds.

[bogey]

[ QUOTE ]
Small blind is clearly contemplating a reraise. And he looks really, really calm. Sigh.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think he projected this image to you on purpose so you would get out of his way or just happened. Thats kickass if he did it on purpose.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is an excellent option if SB will fold. But it's tough to rely on good karma and reads against two players sitting 1 and 2 to my left who are both tricky and skilled, position or no. If SB will overcall my call, I reraise. If SB will fold, I make more money by calling, but that only works if I can read BB correctly later in the hand. More risk, more reward. The SB made it tough there. I correctly read his betting intention and certainty but not his reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it so bad if you call and SB calls. Or would that never happen?

[hank102977]

[ QUOTE ]
It goes fold to the button who raises 3BB, call, raise to 12BB (16:9 for the first caller). What hands makes sense here? (Button is a small stack on this table with 200BB).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm having troble understanding why this is such an easy exercise in hand reading. Why can't the BB's reraise here be for value? What amount could the BB reraise to to where hands like AA or KK start to "make sense here?" The only thing I can think of that you may be impling is that with stacks this deep, any reraise from the BB in this spot will almost always be a steal. Is that the case?

- Chris

[Matt Flynn]

It would be bad because then I have to read both of them well postflop, it is more likely one will hit the flop, and either is capable of re-restealing after my resteal.

Matt

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It goes fold to the button who raises 3BB, call, raise to 12BB (16:9 for the first caller). What hands makes sense here? (Button is a small stack on this table with 200BB).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm having troble understanding why this is such an easy exercise in hand reading. Why can't the BB's reraise here be for value? What amount could the BB reraise to to where hands like AA or KK start to "make sense here?" The only thing I can think of that you may be impling is that with stacks this deep, any reraise from the BB in this spot will almost always be a steal. Is that the case?

- Chris

[/ QUOTE ]

Caveat: I don't play at this level nor with this deep of stacks so there is a strong chance I am dead wrong in my reasoning.

The pot has already been raised. If he is rasing for value here, with what? If it is with a big pair, with stacks this deep he is really putting himself in position ot win a little/lose a lot IMO, especially offering such a nice price to call. If it is with a good speculative hand, that makes some sense since he can pick up a lot of hands post flop with continuing and occasionally have a well disguised made hand. Maybe he has a big pair and is providing cover for the times he has a speculative hand, but if that is the case this would be the less likely exception (i.e. he most likely has some weak hand, so why not put him to the test pre-flop?)

For hand reading, button raises, discount that as it could easily be weak, leveraging position. SB calls, that does not scream strength. Now, after a raise that does not imply any great strength and a call that does not imply any great strength, a small raise inviting calls looks pretty weak. If he popped it more, then I think you have a real quandry. Also, if BB can squeeze out button, he now has position if sb comes along (and why wouldn't he at this point closing the action?). Also, restealing in spots like this is going to be very natural to a tourney player.

My question is, if BB has a big hand, what is his play here? I'm thinking call and play post flop or raise to 500ish to cut down on implied odds. Of course that means he probably needs to at least occasionally raise his speculative hands that much for deception.

[Matt Flynn]

If he raised to $500 with AA/KK, he'd only get called by pairs (if those), and would have to pay off sets most of the time, since his opponents are capable of representing sets and he knows it. Plus then he gets $150 for his AA. AA is worth more than that. He does not want to pop it to $500 on a bluff because there is a chance one of us has the goods. He will usually be obligated to make a big flop bet since our most likely holdings would be a pair and he'd want to force those out when we miss sets. Also, if he pressed harder he could just get clipped.

The idea in a tougher game like this is to work hard on reading skills to get out of bad situations, make good bluffs, and make good value bets. Much harder and more fun than 100BB online stuff.

Matt

[hank102977]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is, if BB has a big hand, what is his play here? I'm thinking call and play post flop or raise to 500ish to cut down on implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If he raised to $500 with AA/KK, he'd only get called by pairs (if those), and would have to pay off sets most of the time, since his opponents are capable of representing sets and he knows it. Plus then he gets $150 for his AA. AA is worth more than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so making it $500 to go is no good. Raising to $300 was thrown out the window pretty early in the thread. Is his best play with AA here really just to smooth call? A strong case can be made for it; It helps disguise the strength of his hand, the stacks are deep(i.e. giving up some value preflop isn't the end of the world), it's a nice pot control tool since he'll rarely improve, etc. Also, it MIGHT help protect himself from the awesome reading abilities of both Matt and the SB. I could be way off on that last one. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

If smooth calling with AA is his best play, then with what hands should he reraise? The way this discussion as played out it doesn't seem like he should ever reraise for value out of the BB in this spot. It seems like he should always favor keeping the pot small and doing whatever he can do to prevent his discissions from becoming difficult when he has a good hand. My instincts tell me that those last two sentences are wrong though, only because Matt's initial description of the BB in the OP was not "huge donk."

Also, one last question: With stacks this deep, would it be correct for the BB to smooth call Matt's raise with virtually anything? He's getting 3.5-1 immediate pot odds and great implied odds. So, call 100% of the time? 75%? 50%?

- Chris

[Matt Flynn]

Raising to $300 with AA there is fine. None of the three players involved are that predictable. You cannot tell from that raise size whether he has it or not.

Why would he be so afraid of me and SB? Remember he may have a good idea of what we have too. Plus I am not an "awesome" reader - he has more to fear from the SB, although position mitigates that. What if, e.g., he decides to play along then checkraise the flop huge?

[hank102977]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising to $300 with AA there is fine. None of the three players involved are that predictable. You cannot tell from that raise size whether he has it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha. When I first read through this thread I got the impression that it should be obvious to anyone and everyone that the BB's reraise was a resteal attempt, and I figured I just wasn't picking up on something. Thanks for clearing that up.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would he be so afraid of me and SB? Remember he may have a good idea of what we have too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess I did go overboard with the idea of the BB being totally locked up in his decision making. Thanks for posting your thoughts Matt.

- Chris