More Neocon lies

[Parmenides]

The Bush admin states that it won't permit Iraqis to elect a Shiite Muslim government. Isn't that true democracy and liberation? The Sec. of Defense has already stated that if the Shiites elect a government of their preference (they account for 60& of the Iraqi population), that the USA woulld annul the election.

Bush doesn't want UN inspectors to search for WMD. That's because there obviusly aren't any. The only way any could surface at this point would be a US plant.

This isn't about oil, yet the Ministry of Oil was protected from looting. The museums were permitted to be looted, and the artifacts are surfacing 1 week later in the USA.

What was W. Bush's military record again? Oh yeah, he deserted the Texas Air National Guard when he was grounded for being too drunk to fly.

[MMMMMM]

There are major problems and greatly undesirable effects associated with Shariah (Islamic Law).

First of all, since Shariah is essentially rule by religious council (and their interpretations of the Koranic prescriptions for every aspect of life), Iraq would cease to be a democracy after that one election. The idea of a democratic republic is to hold repeated elections at intervals--not to have one election and forever afterwards transfer all legal and civic authority to the ruling religious council.

Shariah also is extremely oppressive of women, and of non-Muslims.

There is no separation whatsoever of Mosque and State under Shariah.

If you think having our laws interpreted and enforced by the likes of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson might be bad, you "ain't seen nothin' yet", because Jerry and Pat seem like flaming liberals compared to the typical cleric who hands down edicts or fatwas under Shariah.

[Jimbo]

Parmenides, why does all this bother you so much? Are you planning on moving to Iraq in a nice little retirement home near an oasis? Relax, it will all be Ok, and oh, by the way, take some time off from the weed. It causes extreme paranoia and hallucinations.

[nicky g]

"The Bush admin states that it won't permit Iraqis to elect a Shiite Muslim government"

D'you have a link? I've not seen this.

[adios]

"The Bush admin states that it won't permit Iraqis to elect a Shiite Muslim government. Isn't that true democracy and liberation? The Sec. of Defense has already stated that if the Shiites elect a government of their preference (they account for 60& of the Iraqi population), that the USA woulld annul the election."

It's only a true Democracy if there are many other things in place that would grant and allow for an orderly transition of power in government as well as free and open elections on a regular basis. The problem is that Islam Fundamentalists hate democracy and reject democracy. There are so many things that need to be accomplished in order to establish a democracy in Iraq it's mind boggling.

"Bush doesn't want UN inspectors to search for WMD. That's because there obviusly aren't any. The only way any could surface at this point would be a US plant."

Letting the UN Inspectors back in before the USA is finished doing it's own inspection and investigation is a silly idea which is nothing more than political posturing. If the USA was going to plant WMD's don't you think they'd have gone ahead and done so already and made a big publicity splash? I mean why wait.


"This isn't about oil, yet the Ministry of Oil was protected from looting. The museums were permitted to be looted, and the artifacts are surfacing 1 week later in the USA."

Given the economic status of the average Iraqi,protecting the oil fields seems like a very rational idea indeed.

"What was W. Bush's military record again? Oh yeah, he deserted the Texas Air National Guard when he was grounded for being too drunk to fly."

So what? The draft has been out of existence since the early 70's. We're going to see many more presidents that haven't served in the military. What's hilarious about this statement made is that if Bush HAD a distinguished military career you'd be complaining that all he was doing was helping his friends in the Pentagon wage war.

[nicky g]

"What was W. Bush's military record again? Oh yeah, he deserted the Texas Air National Guard when he was grounded for being too drunk to fly."

So what? The draft has been out of existence since the early 70's. We're going to see many more presidents that haven't served in the military.

I don't think the fact that he wasn't in the military is the issue. It's the fact that his family pulled strings to have him avoid the draft that peole find objectionable - and the penchant for the neocons to wage war despite the fact that they all found ways round the draft themselves.

"What's hilarious about this statement made is that if Bush HAD a distinguished military career you'd be complaining that all he was doing was helping his friends in the Pentagon wage war. "

I think a lot of people proabbly think this anyway.

Regarding the Oil Ministry - of course, safeguarding the fields is a good idea. But I don't understand why it was necessary to bomb the Ministry of Planning over and over again, for instance, and many other civil administration government buildings, while the oil ministry remained untouched. Then other ministries and museums were looted, but the oil ministry was guarded. C'mon. Of course oil is important to Iraq, but so is a functioning civil administration - the coalition only seemed interested in the latter, and went out of its way to attack the former.

[MMMMMM]

I guess no matter how well the coalition kept casualties low and waged an effective, almost surgical war to remove a most evil regime, there will be room to find fault. And that seems to be what the left is best at doing nowadays --finding faults rather than coming up with constructive solutions.

It's a lot easier to find faults than to generate workable solutions and then implement them. By entire orders of magnitude.

[Parmenides]

The current fascist trend bothers me more than any other reason because a significant portion of my ethnic heritage
was German Jew. If you haven't noticed, they don't exist anymore.

Bush's military career contrasts his courage and patriotism with someone like Sen. Kerry ( a true war hero). Dick Cheney spent the sixties dodging the draft the Bill CLinton way while racking up 2 DUI's. He's such a brave party animal.

I find it amusing that a person such as yourself harshly criticizes the government when it corectly states that internet gambling supports terrorism, organized crime, and drug dealing when it interferes with your entertainment.
At the same time you buy all the lies of the fascists when it supports policies that favor your biases.

Quit supporting terrorism and organized crime, Jimbo. I believe the FBI over your delusional thoughts anyday.

[nicky g]

Well, seeing as I was againt the war from the start, it's not that surprisng I find fault with it. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[adios]

"I don't think the fact that he wasn't in the military ..."

Ok I'll amend my statement to include draft dodgers as well.

"I think a lot of people proabbly think this anyway."

Yep you can find something wrong with anyone. Labeling someone a liar or hypocrite is so silly. Everyone lies and commits acts of hypocrasy at some point.

"But I don't understand why it was necessary to bomb the Ministry of Planning over and over again, for instance, and many other civil administration government buildings, while the oil ministry remained untouched."

I don't know either.

"Then other ministries and museums were looted, but the oil ministry was guarded. C'mon. Of course oil is important to Iraq, but so is a functioning civil administration - the coalition only seemed interested in the latter, and went out of its way to attack the former."

I assume you mean by ther former ministries as I don't believe museums were military targets. Part of the problem with maintaining the status quo in a civil administration was that they are either Baath party memembers or perceived that way. I agree that a functioning civil administration is vital. The other thing about looting is that the coalition was concerned about being perceived as another oppressor. Tough line to walk, mistakes have been made, perfection shouldn't be expected IMO.

[Jimbo]

"Quit supporting terrorism and organized crime, Jimbo. I believe the FBI over your delusional thoughts anyday. I guess you missed the retraction on that subject Parmenides. That was a delusional Senator thumping his chest when that was initially reported and is still being used by people such as yourself with no substantiation whatsoever.

[AmericanAirlines]

What current facist trend?

Geez, America is becoming africanized by the minute. And busses labeled "Jewish this" this or "Jewish that" troll around the Palm Beaches regularly.

If those busses said "White this" or "White that" there'd be an outcry.

The current trend in racism seems to be *anti-white* IMHO.

Geez, you even hear it in song... "He's pretty fly for a *white* guy".

Jewish folk are all concerned about racism... yet they have a word.... "Goy":

Quick definitions (Gentile)
noun: in this sense `Gentile'
denotes a Christian as
contrasted with a Jew; `goy' is
a derogatory word for
Christians used by Jews

I've heard some sects of Judiasm are required to spit on crucifixes, or thier own chest if they can't get away with it.

Don't get me wrong. I have Jewish friends. I'm not anti-semetic. To be honest, I always though Jews were white. But y'all are just as racist as everyone else. One of my Jewish buds calls Islamics, "Camel Jockeys" and "Sand N*iggers". And he's as stereo-typical NY Jew as you can get. He even calls himself a NY Jew!

It seems to me Jewish folk are inherently racist or at least a clique. I mean after all, you call yourselves, "Gods Chosen People". How much more exclusive than that can you get.

No wonder folks resent you folks sometimes.

For crying out loud. 6 million Jews got it in WWII. But so did 4 million Poles... So how come there's no "Polish Holcaust Survivor", busses running around Palm Beach, etc. Or perhaps Polish Holocaust movies?

Think about it.

Sincerely,
AA

[andyfox]

"Don't get me wrong. I have Jewish friends."

That'a a relief.

Do you have any African friends?

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi AndyFox,
Well here we go again. You seem to want to deny that the media and the law are shoving africans at us. Ever seen a Sierra Mist commercial? I'd bet that has to be Coca Cola bottling because they are in Atlanta.

And so why is it a "relief" that I have minority friends?

To be honest I'm perfectly confortable with asians for example. You keep displaying that "gotta have blacks" attitude that I can't stand. Like it's an absolute *must* or something. Why do I have to conform to your ideals here?

Sorry if you can't see the trends right in front of you. Did you ever go look at this document issued by the Census Bureau?

http://landview.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-5.pdf


As you can see there are several majority black cities... And the numbers are growing (if you look at the map on page 6) in the deep south and eastern seaboard and adjacent areas. And of course in the west where it hasn't reached as much yet, Vegas, LA and Frisco clearly have high densities.

So anywhere with warm climate is africanized. (So apparently, if you don't want to live in the snow belt, you're SOL at getting away from blacks unless you're rich enough to live in Santa Barbara or whatever. But even Palm Beach Island has Don King!)

Everyone else just up and leaves as an area becomes blacker. So they will simply out-reproduce us and take our neigborhoods just by thier presence. However this is typical for species in *any* niche when an african species arrives. Biologists call them "invasive species". Seems the african continent, for whatever biological reasons, perhaps jungle conditions, is home to many such species. Heck, homo sapiens in general originated in africa they say... and now look... not a spot on the planet without us.

But to answer the question, yes... But he's a Haitan immigrant that is the CEO of an IT services firm. Not at all your traditional African-American. We worked on a project for FedEx together. Matter of fact, he was the team leader. He later also worked on ballot counting during the issues down in Palm Beach.

For what it's worth... the director 3 notches above me here is black as well... So the need for Affirmative Action does not stand out to me. And chances are he got into a better college than me on lesser qualifications, as will his kids. Where's the equity in that?

We have blacks all the way up to Capital Hill. So I say, it's time for "equal in the eyes of the law" as the only non-discriminational policy for *law*. But not my personal or working life.

In the past I had more african freinds.

But after my house got broken into, my vehicles stolen, a former classmate shot while being a teacher... I've pulled my support for it all. The statistics are what they are, and I'm older and wiser now.

So the question is... since the "protected classes" have thier rights protected by Title 42 of the Federal Code...
Where's the protection of my right to be separate from them?

But, as I've said before, I don't care to persecute anyone. But that doesn't mean I want to have to socialize with anyone in particular by law, quotas whatever. So please stop supporting the idea that I *must*.

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. I believe it was you that pointed out that "Blacks have a higher physical crime rate, but whites have a higher white collar crime rate". I believe this speaks to the differences in these two races. Africans are more physical, causasians more cerebral. Perhaps the effects of natural selection differences caused by the difference in climate between Africa and Europe.

[nicky g]

how exactly do you know that the people who broke into your house and stole your car were black?

[AmericanAirlines]

They were caught. Black crack dealers to be exact.

And Barry Grunow's murderer was Daniel Brazil... all over national TV.

Then there was the time I was over my father's house. He took delivery of a large brown box. A gun safe. The delivery guys were black.

Dad asked me to stay with him and take the day off from work. We worked night shift at the time. He felt there was going to be a break in by the delivery guys because he noticed one of them saw a copy of Guns and Ammo on the coffee table. He made sure to say out load he was going to work...

Sure enough... about an hour later one homie came wandering back... My old man confronted him... "Why are you here?"

Answer... "Lost my clip board."

Dad asks, "Why's your buddy parked in the delivery truck *a block away*???"

No answer... but we know why. Handguns are small. No reason to draw attention with the truck and it's phone number on the side...


Sincerely,
AA

[Clarkmeister]

Holy [censored] dude, its one thing to be racist, but its another to shout from the rooftops that you are a proud racist.

You've got some serious issues my man.

[AmericanAirlines]

Clarky,
You're missing the point.

And I don't have serious issues. I'm speaking the truth of observation and experience with out a Politically Correct filter. It you can't deal with it... that's *your* problem... er ahem... "issues".

I am not racist. I'm defending myself against what I see as the current trend against my own race.

I'm screaming... "Stop shoving African Culture up MY NOSE... PLEASE!!!!".

and

"STOP SHOVING IT UP MY NOSE BY LAW!!!"

And

"EVERYONE BUT WHITES ARE ALLOWED TO OPENLY BE RACISTS... WHY???"

I don't wish anyone any harm. I'm not advocated stoking up the ovens or even burning crosses. I'd stand against that too... if they were being pushed into the colleges by law etc.

For someone who can analyze a deck of cards with total objectivity like you... well I'm surprised you can't see the truth of the points I've made.

Sincerely,
AA

[adios]

""EVERYONE BUT WHITES ARE ALLOWED TO OPENLY BE RACISTS... WHY???"

Certainly racism isn't solely in the domain of causcasions. I can't think of anything specific at this moment but I know certain leaders of the Black community have offended me in the past with what I would consider racist comments such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Perhaps I'm too sensitive.

[MMMMMM]

This is related to the "pendulum principle," which you mentioned in another post (though perhaps not by that name). During the process of correction, the pendulum always ends up swinging back too far the other way. The pendulum has now swung too far and minorities get something of a "pass" from society when they discriminate against whites.

I suggest the answer may be not to give the pendulum pushes in ANY direction, but rather to do our best to force it to stay centered (regarding college admissions, for instance, that would mean making it illegal to discriminate based on race in ANY direction.)

If a central and unbiased position is ultimately our goal, why not make it our objective at outset rather than taking a roundabout route involving compensations, overcompensations, corrections, etc...

By the way if it is true that Jackson admitted spitting in white people's food while working as a waiter, that is, IMO, very bad racism and very poor personal character.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Tom,
I'm not even saying that blacks are some hidden source of racism. On posts about this topic I've tried to point out that many groups that shout racism, are in fact racist themselves. That's all.

Anyway, there are extremist groups in all races. All of which I don't support. No matter which one.

I'm against any group imposing it's will on me or others by force. No matter who they are.

As for black racism. Well... Rastafarians come to mind.
One ethiopian gal I worked with at the Sahara, on the strip actually told me to stop speaking English... but it was OK when I started talking to her in French! Talk about arrogant. Some Ethiopiuan immigrant no less. Like, go back to Ethiopia then!

Here's a definition from Britannica. After you read it, I think you'll understand why white guys with dreadlocks, smoking joints, make me laugh at thier ignorance.

"Rastafarian:

Member of a political and religious movement among blacks in Jamaica and several other countries.

Rastafarians worship Haile Selassie, considering him the messiah. They believe that blacks are the Israelites reincarnated, who have been subjected to the evil and
inferior white race in divine punishment for their sins; they will eventually be redeemed by repatriation to Africa and will compel the whites to serve them.

These beliefs, first enunciated in 1953, can be traced to several independent prophets, particularly Marcus Garvey.

As the movement grew, ideas of repatriation tended to
give way to either black militancy or mysticism. The Rastafarian life usually includes vegetarianism, the wearing of dreadlocks, and the smoking of marijuana."

Here's a longer writeup:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafarianism

Sincerely,
AA

[ACPlayer]

I believe it was you that pointed out that "Blacks have a higher physical crime rate, but whites have a higher white collar crime rate". I believe this speaks to the differences in these two races. Africans are more physical, causasians more cerebral. Perhaps the effects of natural selection differences caused by the difference in climate between Africa and Europe.


Just to pick on one of the many stereotypes in your "I'm white and being discriminated against" rants.

Generally more educated whites and blacks are more cerebral and the less educated whites and blacks are more physical. Your causal relationship maybe because there are more educated whites than blacks.

Reminds me of the time when someone said to me that all Indians are very intelligent and educated. Of course being a university professor she only came in contact with intelligent educated Indians. There are plenty of boorish, racist, dumb ass Indians as there are boorish, racist, dumb ass people in every race.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi ACPlayer,
Feel free to pick on my rants. I'm not all wound up about it.

The point is not, "I'm white and discriminated against" (except where laws regarding Admissions policies, hiring practices etc. are in question) but, more so, that the powers that be in media and law seem to be cramming africanization at all of us.

A foreigner once said to me, "You Americans don't seem to hate your n*iggers... you love them... they're everywhere I look... TV, magazines..."

To be honest I never noticed before that, but he was correct.

Now as for your premise. I agree, violence is probably the first choice tool of the uneducated.

However, stats do indicate that blacks as a group have a higher crime rate.

I even think I once saw Eddie Murphy do a comedy routine "Attack of the Blacks"... where he said... "The negros are coming... the crime rate's up... the property values are down!"

So it's OK for a black comedian to say it, but not me?

Anyway, I'm sure I'm boorish and a dumb ass. I was born to the working classes and had to work my way through an education. Unlike some Old Money New England types, for example.

As for Policy, well, the AGOA act seems to be saying, "Umm let's not only Africanize America but give Africa preferred trading status and prop up thier economy."

To be honest, I don't even want african products in my home.

But now your clothes will be coming from Dominican Republic. (There's an AGOA equivalent for the carribean as well).

If you want to see the trend I'm discussing... just consider the history of the US Virgin Islands.

Europeans came over and kicked out the Arawac Indians.
Then they brought in african labor.
When the africans reached a critical mass in the population, they took over.

The Virgin Islands and the Carribean are black majority to this day.

The Census document I had cited seems to be saying a similar trend, without the violent revolt of the Virgin Islands, is under way here on the mainland as well.

So I suspect the American Indians should've killed off the Europeans that came over while they had a chance. Now they'll have to watch as thier former homeland becomes a piece of the Sub-Sahara!

But of course, since they feel they are a minority, they will, I suspect, unwittingly side with the africans against the whites.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Hmm... if I've got issues... apparently people smarter than myself do as well...

I am not wrong in the assertion that Affirmative Action is discrimination.

Seems affimative action lives the limbo of political correctness.

If you are going to allow race as a consideration for "good things" then you have to allow it as a consideration for bad things to... It's one or the other. Race does or does not count. Period.

Here's a quote from SLATE :

Bakke held that the Constitution forbids public universities
and other government agencies to use rigid racial quotas but does not the use of race as a "factor" among others.

This decision has been popular, because it seems like a reasonable enough compromise between the view that reverse racial favoritism is unobjectionable and the view that it
is offensive in any form.

Trouble is, the Constitution is not supposed to split the difference. It is supposed to declare basic principles. And as a matter of principle, there is no difference between considering race as a factor and considering race as a quota. University admissions are an all-or-nothing proposition:

You're either admitted or you're not. And race either made the difference or it did not. It doesn't matter to the person who loses a place due to affirmative action whether the particular mechanism was an absolute exclusion from some part of the available places or a partial penalty in
competing for all the places. Every place that goes to a different person because of race is a quota of one.

The refusal of most affirmative action supporters to acknowledge this unavoidable logical truth—their naive or cynical embrace of Justice Lewis Powell's wiggy notion in Bakke that quotas are bad but race-as-a-factor is OK because they do it that way at Harvard—leaves supporters quite rightly scared of what the court might do when it reconsiders the question from scratch."

Sincerely,
AA

[ACPlayer]

I wonder if the blacks feel as loved by the Americans as this foreigner friend of your believes.

Blacks do have higher crime rates, do you believe that this a genetic predisposition? A simple yes or no would suffice.

My suggestion is that a better causal relationship would be the level/standard of education and crime.

Violence is the choice of the uneducated (blacks), the the educated (Bush admininistration), disenfranchised (palestinians), the racists (Hutu's, Tutsi's), dictators (Saddam), our friends (Saudis, S. Koreans), our enemies (Russians, Chechens) the list goes on.

Lastly, it is truly OK for you to say anything. It would be better for you to listen to and consider what you say and what it means to you.

I do congratulate you on your achievements.

Sincerely

[AmericanAirlines]

I suspect the blacks to do not feel so loved.

I've often used this statement in thier defense:

"Since the blacks feel disenfranchised it seems to me that they would be predisposed to crime. Why would the buy into the rules of a place where they feel like outcasts?"

Of course, after being the recipient of such crime, it gets hard to justify.

I realize it's more complicated that "blacks are inherently more violent". I'm not some skin head. But I will say that blacks are not simply whites with darker skin, any more than whites are simply blacks without a tan. (Though if you dig deep enough into the "old brain" we're all animals anyway.) Unfortunately for folks who like to draw clean lines in the sand, it's more a shade of grey kind of question. For instance, where's a mullato stand? What if she's lighter, like Maria Carey? What if she's darker like (fill in the blank... don't have a good example)?

However, *yes* I do believe there is a statistically valid genetic predisposition to thier behavior.

But that is just an unscientific *belief* founded on living near some areas that are majority black. I cannot prove it.

However, empirically, the cause doesn't matter.

Discrimination in this case strikes me as a simple defense mechanism. "Blacks seem more violent on average... avoid them".

You'd do the same with a mountain lion or a bear as well right? "Bears look dangerous... stay out if thier way".

So, although I advocate "equal in the eyes of the law" as the law of the land. For me personally, I don't want the law to conflict with my personal life. Nor, to put me at a socio-economic disadvantage by Affirmative Action and Quota policies in education or the work place.

Ummm... I haven't achieved anything, so I don't believe congratulations are in order. I'm just an every day working class bum like most of the rest of us. If I'd achieved anything really worthwile, would I be debating this issue here and now?

As for a causal relationship based on education. I'd argue differently.

I'd argue that it's based on economics. That poor whites probably have higher than average crime rates too.

But... I go a step further and say that Black SAT scores are lower, so that blacks are more likely to be less educated, thus earn less, thus more likely to be in environments where crime is looked at as more acceptable.

How much lower SAT scores are nurture or nature I can't say. But Asians typically have higher SATs than anyone else. Never seem to see (as many) token Asians on TV commercials etc. as blacks. I also never seem to hear about Asian crime levels. But then perhaps they are smart enough to cover thier tracks, who can say?

In any event, Asian cultures definitely seem to have a history of intellect. But what african culture does. I suppose you could technically say the Egyptians. But I don't think they consider themselves "negroid". The afrocentrist have debated this point to death. Apparenty the Afro-centrists want to say the Egyptians are blacks. The opponents of this want to say... "Nope, the greeks described anyone lighter than themselves as "black peoples" or "dark peoples", pointing at classical Greek texts about Egypt.

Seems "Diversity" is a code word for black.

As for what I say and what it means to me. You might want to explain the meaning behind that sentiment, as I feel I'm missing something there.

As I continue to state, I'm not for any Nazi style tactics and don't particularly care for Neo Nazi Skin Heads either.

Again, the whole point is to chop of any group before it exerts coercion on my life. Though admittedly, I would elect not to socialize with africans on average. At some deep biological level I just don't want too. (For example, I just don't find african traits sexually attractive. But I do find Asian trait attractive.) However, I admit that, and would prefer it's not thrust upon me. That's all.

On the other hand, when it comes to the economic ramifications of policy, then Affirmative Action strikes me as reverse discrimination, plain and simple. I don't believe I'm alone on this issue.

Anyway, bottom line. I still believe everyone, regardless of race should have a great life. Plain and simple. I also hold that some part of that great life is freedom of choice, and gov't should force social choices on me. (E.g. Busing, etc.)

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. To be honest, I believe racism may actually work a bit like this:

1. Assume 3 black guys and 3 white guys are standed in a life raft. All 6 must row if anyone is to survive... well... you know they will all row.

2. Now assume they land on an Island that will only support 4 people.

3. How do you think sides will be chose when push comes to shove and 2 people have to be knocked off?

4. I'd guess along racial lines.

Perhaps it's a throw back to tribal times when you had to identify freind and foe by sight.

[ACPlayer]

As for what I say and what it means to me. You might want to explain the meaning behind that sentiment, as I feel I'm missing something there.

I am suggesting some introspection. Something we should all do sometimes. Nothing more than that.

Aha we agree on two points:

1. crime may be causally correlated to economic status.
2. Asian traits are hot.

Unfortunately, govts impose all sorts of constraints on our lives based on their perceptions of the greater good. Every economic, social, political stripe is disaffected by some aspect of this influence in our lives. So what, deal with it, vote.

It is normal for you to be scared of high crime areas which happen to be black just as it is normal for a black person to be scared of being stopped by some backwater cop in S. Carolina.

Asian criminal gangs (boston, ny china town gangs are an example) are just as violent as any other. Because most of their violence is against other asians they are not perceived as a threat by the population.

I have to reject the notion that violence and crime is a genetic trait. I could be wrong.

Regarding African learnedness. I agree that in Africa (other than N. Africa) there has been no great learned history. I do not know why. But again so what? A few years ago when I was in Kenya i spoke with a Samburu tribesman at his home (a few mud huts whereever their nomadic life had taken them recently). He seemed to be the happiest person I have met, completely at home with his natural surroundings, his family life, his wealth (his fairly large herd). I know he did not have any of the modern trappings - but he did have a level of contentment not found in "modern" society.

[andyfox]

"*yes* I do believe there is a statistically valid genetic predisposition to thier behavior. But that is just an unscientific *belief* founded on living near some areas that are majority black. I cannot prove it."

It's a racist belief. You've taken the behavior of some people and attributed it to their being of a certain race and thus stigmatize the entire race. They're genetically predisposed to be criminals because they're not as "cerebral" as whites.

If you don't want to see blacks on TV, don't watch. If you don't want to marry a black, don't. But if you don't want them to live in your neighborhood, or eat in your restauraa, or drink from the same public drinking fountain as you, then that's precisely why we need laws to "conflict" with your "personal" life.

[MMMMMM]

ACPLayer: "It is normal for you to be scared of high crime areas which happen to be black just as it is normal for a black person to be scared of being stopped by some backwater cop in S. Carolina."

This is really off. High crime areas are a danger to everyone, while backwater cops are not generally a threat to anyone.

I know you're trying to show a mirror image or something like that, but this comparison is way, way off.

[ACPlayer]

Different people fear different things based on the stereotypes they carry in their head. Both fears are equally valid to the person feeling the fear.

[MMMMMM]

Not in this case.

Blacks also fear going into high violent crime areas. It's the fact that it's a high violent crime area more than the fact that it might be predominantly black that matters most here.

However, fearing getting pulled over by a backwater cop is a much more baseless fear, regardless of race.

The point is that it's damn dangerous for anyone to go walking about a low-income black housing project at 2:00 AM. It's almost never dangerous to get pulled over by a Southern cop. So this is a terrible example if you are trying to illustrate fear based primarily on racial stereotypes. It's also a bad example if used to imply that the fear a white person may hold walking through a black neighborhood is due primarily to racial stereotypes (unless it's a rich black neighborhood;-)). Poor inner-city neighborhoods with high violent crime rates are considered relatively dangerous based on crime statistics and reality.

[ACPlayer]

Correction, it is foolish to walk in a project at night regardless of your race.

I delivered food into projects as part of meals on wheels and never felt scared - though i was careful. Others feel fear of black "homies" delivering items to their houses. Others may feel fear of driving in the south or in the rich white suburbs of LA or of being stopped by cops in NY (ask the guy who was shot by 40 plus bullets when a fearful armed cop thought a wallet was a gun)

You cant deny or pass judgement on the fear. The fears exist. You may think they are dumb and baseless does not mean that they are not real to the person who is feeling them.

[MMMMMM]

Right but the point is that the fear or danger is not primarily race-dependent when it comes to bad housing projects. Such areas are relatively high risk for anyone.

Police brutality, while at times real, is a much lesser risk for anyone: a less frequent occurrence. In other words there are far more cases of violent crime and muggings than there are cases of police brutality, so the potential for being attacked or mugged should rightly figure higher in one's reasonable concerns. This is not primarily a race-dependent matter. So: it doesn't make as much sense for anyone to fear being stopped by a redneck cop as it does to fear walking in high crime areas at night, and that's true for people of any race. One activity is simply far riskier than the other.

[ACPlayer]

Depends on where you are coming from.

Seems we are generally in agreement though, at least about avoiding the projects at night.

[MMMMMM]

Well I suppose if you're a crack dealer you might be more worried about being stopped for speeding by a redneck cop than about walking in the projects at night;-)

[ACPlayer]

... or if you fit the profile of a crack dealer. Wonder
what the first item in that profile would be.

You opened THAT door!

[Parmenides]

It's clear the museums were targeted by at least some elements in the military for looting. The fact that these artifacts are surfacing in the USA a week later indicates great complicity.

You are quick to forgive your draft dodging, deserter leaders. I spent about 2 hours last night discussing the current fascist regime in Washington with Vietnam vets against the war. These were real decorated soldiers that see evil growing in the Neocon movement threatening our constitutional rights, and everything that they fought for.
They believe that the Vets of all wars will turn against Bush because the Republicans are drastically cutting VA benefits while they wave the flag in the face of true patriots.

[MMMMMM]

Funny--although even if you fit the profile of a crack dealer I don't think you'd have as much to fear from being stopped by a redneck cop as from walking through the projects at night.

[MMMMMM]

So some soldiers wanted some souvenirs, or more perhaps. So our eleced officials aren't perfect. At least they aren't monsters like some leaders the world has today.

As I wrote some time ago, some degree of corruption amongst public officials should be expected. Very few people actually make it through this difficult, complicated life as Abraham Lincolns. As long as it's a manageable degree of imperfection/corruption, I'm willing to accept it.

The true tyrants are the real concerns to me, because they slaughter, enslave and make miserable many millions of human beings. Also, their iron-fisted regimes usually stifle economic growth and create more problems in that way.

If all the economic basket case countries of the world would cast aside their antiquated ideas and iron rules, we would probably see a great blossoming of worldwide economic activity and growth. Plus we would literally save billions in foreign aid which would no longer be necessary. Instead of having to GIVE them money, we could have our companies INVESTING in their countries, creating more jobs and growth. And as these countries blossomed economically they would become self-sufficient.

It's the old story: give a man a fish or teach him how to fish. However the mad mullahs and the dictators don't generally like things like that, because an economically empowered people is a threat to their rule.

[Parmenides]

What's real is that looting took place on a high level by the military. What's real is soldiers that fought in Vietnam rather than deserting because they couldn't play with the planes anymore. What's real is that the Admin has lied about WMD on purpose to justify an oil grab. What's real is that at least 100k Iraqis have died in the last month for fascist wealth subsidizing Hallibrton and Bechtel.
What's real is the USA is setting up a new prison system in Iraq to house anyone against our presence. What's real is that the CIA uses torture and murder to enforce it's policies.

What's real is that you are a fool.

[MMMMMM]

Well we'll just have to see what surfaces in Iraq regarding WMD. I'm pretty sure proof will be found.

If all we wanted was an oil grab, couldn't we have done that a lot easier and cheaper in 1991? Or today in Venezuela?

We need a vast and strong military presence in the Middle East to cut down on the terrorism. Hopefully too we can reshape the Middle East and bring it out of the Dark Ages and into the 21st century.

The biggest threat is proliferation of nuclear weapons into the hands of terrorists or mad mullahs. If that happens, kiss Israel and New York City goodbye.

Yes we need to keep an eye on our civil liberties as we fight terror. However I don't think that aspect of the situation is as dire at present as you believe it to be.

Hey Saddam looted the Iraqi people a helluva lot more than any U.S. military personnel did. I also read that Human Rights Watch says Saddam has systematically tortured between 300,00 and 500,00 Iraqis.

You've got to try to keep things in perspective.

[ACPlayer]

We need a vast and strong military presence in the Middle East to cut down on the terrorism. Hopefully too we can reshape the Middle East and bring it out of the Dark Ages and into the 21st century

What we need is to clean up the mess the british left in 48 when Israel was created and the Palestinians started to live in their own particular version of legal, political and social limbo.

[adios]

You wrote:

"You are quick to forgive your draft dodging, deserter leaders."

Don't see where I forgave anybody. Just making a prediction and an observation that Bush's military record is irrelevant to YOU. It's irrelevant to you because it doesn't matter to you, it's only another way that you can bash him. At least discuss my statments in context. I know you're pushing an agenda so I'm not offended but manipulation of what I said is poor form IMO.


My original statement:

"So what? The draft has been out of existence since the early 70's. We're going to see many more presidents that haven't served in the military. What's hilarious about this statement made is that if Bush HAD a distinguished military career you'd be complaining that all he was doing was helping his friends in the Pentagon wage war."

How I stated that I'd ammend it:

"Ok I'll amend my statement to include draft dodgers as well."

How the amended statement should read:

"So what? The draft has been out of existence since the early 70's. We're going to see many more presidents that haven't served in the military and dodged that draft as well. What's hilarious about this statement made is that if Bush HAD a distinguished military career you'd be complaining that all he was doing was helping his friends in the Pentagon wage war."

[Parmenides]

You'd make a great Brown Shirt. perhaps you already are. Don't go asking anyone else to sing Midland Texas Uber Alles.

G-d will judge people of your persuasion. I wouldn't be looking forward to the after life if I were you.

[MMMMMM]

I won't disagree with that.

Also, the backwards ideas and political systems of the rest of the Middle East need to be addressed; the problems of the Middle East are immense (even without the Israeli/Palestinian issue, which of course further complicates things and multiplies the difficulties).

[MMMMMM]

Maybe some day you will realize that the great fascism of today is in fact Islamo-Fascism.

[nicky g]

"If all we wanted was an oil grab, couldn't we have done that a lot easier and cheaper in 1991? Or today in Venezuela? "

I seem to remember a botched attempt at something very similar not tha long ago in Venezuela. The administration demonstrated their great respect for demcoracy back then by backing the coup leaders.

[adios]

"A foreigner once said to me, "You Americans don't seem to hate your n*iggers... you love them... they're everywhere I look... TV, magazines..."


I think this actually is a good thing that we have and accept diversity.

[adios]

I hate rap music and the only time I'm forced to listen to it is when some young person pulls up next to me with his/her boom box at maxed out volume levels.

[Parmenides]

Ok, calling you a fool was nice. I assumed that you didn't realize that the alternative is that you are a fascist cheerleader, racist, ethnocentric, ranting Nazi. your posts over the last month indicate that you understand your evil. Therefore, I rescind my calling you a fool. You are a Nazi.

[andyfox]

I'm not a fan of rap either, but I'd rather listen to it for 24 hours at full blastg for the rest of my life than to five seconds of quiet country music.

[MMMMMM]

Funny. Why don't you do a little research about what a great many Arab leaders and clerics want to do to the Jews. Why don't you find out how they treat their women. Look up what religious rights non-Muslims have in Saudi Arabia.

Ever wonder why the religious law penalty for leaving Islam is DEATH? Ever wonder why today, many ex-Muslims live in great fear for their lives--under fatwas decreeing that they are to be killed--simply because they chose to leave Islam? The list includes well-known authors.

Ever wonder why it is can be a capital offense in Saudi Arabia to preach Christianity?

Ever wonder why imams issue murder fatwas against those they think have slandered Islam?

Can you recognize Fascism when you see it (even if it isn't German or Italian in the 1940's)?

[Roy Munson]

"Africans are more physical and caucasions are more cerebral".
How do you come to this conclusion?

How do you define more physical? Or more cerebral?

Can you please cite research to support these conclusions or is this based upon personal observation or anecdotal evidence?

[Michael Davis]

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with affirmative action. Unfortunately, most who are against affirmative action START from a racist point of view and then extend it down to affirmative action. Then, they make up ridiculous justifications for their point of view and try to claim they are not racist.

I suspect you are in this group. The points you make are worthless. The conclusions you draw from such "experience" as having your house robbed are idiotic and illogical. You unquestionably are an unreserved bigot. Rastafarianism or an arrogant Ethiopian aquaintance have absolutely no relevance in this conversation.

If you are going to make judgments based on experience, make sure that a) your experiences have been normal and b) you are equipped with the intellectual capacity to understand what you have experienced. Of course, this latter point is impossible.

Best of luck to you. Too bad you exist.

[Michael Davis]

"Anyway, I'm sure I'm boorish and a dumb ass. I was born to the working classes and had to work my way through an education. Unlike some Old Money New England types, for example."

You said it.

Bitterness and resentment towards New Englanders too, eh? Anyone you approve of except yourself?

[Parmenides]

Let's see how obsessive and compulsive you are, Brown Shirt.
Selling any "souvenirs" for over $500,000 lately?
They may be looking for you in Nuremburg.

[ACPlayer]

I dont think we need to deal with the backward ideas and political systems around the world including the middle east. As I have stated many times before there are many, many countries where brutal dictators run rough shod over human rights of their peoples. For more go to www.amnesty.org. (http://www.amnesty.org.)

Our hands would be full for centuries taking on the countries of the world (after all there is exactly one country that has the values/culture/institutions/way of life like the US).

We should however take steps to deal with the security issues that have arisen out of the Israel/Palestinian problem. The core issue in terrorism and hence the US security from terrorism continues to be the Palestinian question and our perceived total support of Israel and perceived total lack of support for the Palestinians.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi AndyFox,
Is in not possible that some traits *do* in fact fall along racial lines?

SAT scores seem to bear out that Blacks are not as cerebral as Whites, who are not as cerbral as Asians.

As for TV, yes, I turn off Cosby and the "Hip Hop Countdown". But the blacks are so sprinkled... and have BET (Black Entertainment Television) to boot.

When you state:

"But if you don't want them to live in your neighborhood, or eat in your restauraa, or drink from the same public drinking fountain as you, then that's precisely why we need laws to "conflict" with your "personal" life. "

I have to disagree profoundly... because those laws are coercing me to interface with people I don't wish to. There's no protection of my right *not* to associate.

And to be honest I do avoid places of heavy african presence.

Tell ya what. Next time 200 Hatians land in Miami, we'll relocate them to your block... fair enough?

If you can't see that American culture is becoming blacker, well, I just don't think you're awake. And if you can't see that places that are majority black, are pretty awful (case in point, Africa!) well... you can lead a horse to water, they say.

Anyway, suppose I open a business and don't want to have them as clients... now the law screws my freedom of choice.

However, this was never real point. As I'd fight for a black man's right to be equal in the eyes of the law at all times.

Here's the point, which was really about the racist nature of Affirmative Action in outline form:

BLACKS"
1. DO get into educational instutions with lesser qualifications...

2. BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK

WHITES:
1. DO NOT get into educational institutions with lesser qualifications

2. BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE.

CONCLUDE: AFFIRMATIVE ACTION POLICIES ARE RACIST AGAINST WHITES.

That was the only real point.

The sub-point is:

1. IF RACE IS NOT TO MATTER, THEN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION MUST GO. The law must be color blind.

2. IF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION STAYS, Then REDLINING, RACIAL PROFILING, and SEGREGATION MUST BE OK TOO... since race matters.

So there's my point, irrespective of my desire to socialize or not with blacks, That the LAW must be all one way or the other. And the law should not interfere with my personal or business life on these grounds.

Now let's talk about spending of Public Funds. Here in Denver they just blew 16.5 million on a Black History Research Library.... Where's the 16.5 million Scottish History Center, Asian History Center, Whoever-Else-History Center.

Just more proof that blacks are getting disproportionate attention in these things.

A "White History Research Center" would be percieved as Nazi. Again, because of Hitler et. al. whites aren't allowed to be proud of thier heritage any more?

Seems painfully one sided.

If africa is so great... how come I don't see a massive repatriation movement?

Maybe because it's better over here? Why do you think that is?

[Michael Davis]

Bill Cosby is a filthy nigger.

[ACPlayer]

Funny?? Not really. It is really to the point.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MMMMMM,
Even though I sound racist as all get out, I do have to say that one of my military buds tells me that cops in Arkansas, where he was stationed really were verbally abusive at the very least on blacks.

Which I cannot condone.

He tells me that blacks there still where large Jackson 5 fros and cops call them "boy" and all that.

This isn't correct.

However, I do agree that the 2:00 am walk through the projects can be life threatening.

And here's where I critisize the blacks. Low income does not *have* to mean violent, or trashed out. A cheap house can be well maintained. Many retirement communities are low income and they're not this way. Probably a poor parallel anyway.

But the point is, poor doesn't have to mean "white trash", "gangstas" or any of that crap.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

I've not looked for research on this point.

I can say that I saw on the cover of one of the business newspapers (Business Daily? Was 3 years ago.) That SAT scores for Blacks are lower, and Asians were the best.

I can also say that pro sports that are dependant on size and strength (e.g. football) are disportionately black.

Size and Strength tend to come from Testosterone... which carries with it, higher levels of aggression.

Sincerely,
AA

[ACPlayer]

I have to disagree profoundly... because those laws are coercing me to interface with people I don't wish to. There's no protection of my right *not* to associate.

Sorry, i missed something. What law is coercing you to associate with anyone you dont want to? Unless you are in jail -- you are free to associate or not.

[AmericanAirlines]

Ummm... That's uncalled for.

Actually, he's successful. Somebody voted him all that money.

I don't care for the arogance he displays. But you cannot deny his success.

[AmericanAirlines]

Actually, If more inner city folks modeled themselves after Cosby, rather than Gansta types, things might be different.

Cosby might actually be a shining role model.

[Michael Davis]

So your problem is really with professional athletes? This sounds like a size distinction, not a racial one.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Micheal,
It's to bad people like you would use force of law to force your views on others. I continue to argue for equality in law.

I'd still argue I'm not a racist. I don't want to hurt anyone. To me racists want to put people in ovens.

I really am live and let live. But I see a a trend that says it's not OK to be white. (By the way, skip to the end to understand my proposed solution to it all.)

I just want my freedom of choice on a personal level and equality in the eyes of the law as stated repeatedly.

And well, if I can't draw conclusions based on my own conclusions... who's conclusions should I accept as the final answer? Yours? G.W. Bushes, The Scientologist? The Catholic Church? Islam?

I'm trust my own judgement, plain and simple. As a result I'm not buying into the current trend. That's all.

Now here's something that will likely flake you out. Had a mullato girl friend in my teens... And one of the other Ethiopian gals in that clique was giving me "signals" if you follow me there. Of course it would've been hypocritical of my to follow up on them. And any kids that came out of it, would be coming into a very unfriendly world.

The reason the comment related is because it shows that blacks are *every bit* as intrinsically racist as whites.

As for you, comments like: "you are equipped with the intellectual capacity to understand what you have experienced. Of course, this latter point is impossible."

Shows me you aren't as opened minded as you'd like to think.

You reverted to throwing insults at someone who disagrees with you. Oooo... that's highly evolved!

:-)

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. Here's the whole thing in a nutshell:

1. There's about 3 states a society can exist in. Only two of them lead to people not having hatred.

a. Everyone is rich enough to have thier own space.
b. Every one has to compete.
c. There's an overarching threat to everyone's survival.

Cases (a) and (c) lead to colorblind relations. Case (b)... the current modern world... leads to people fighting on every visible division. Race, sex, religion, economic class.

I argue we need to engineer a world in state (a)... Everyone lives like the rich. (Without servants of course... there can be no underclass.)

Now let me illustrate by filling out the "6 men in a boat" story.

1. Assume 3 black guys and 3 white guys are standed in a life raft. All 6 must row if anyone is to survive... well... you know they will all row.

2. Now assume they land on an Island that will only support 4 people.

3. How do you think sides will be chose when push comes to shove and 2 people have to be knocked off?

4. I'd guess along racial lines.

5. This state of affairs represents the current world. Competing for Resources. Case (b). It's only when we must fight for resources that divides occur.

6. Now lets assume they landed on an Island the size of Maui and they were the only 6 on it. Hmmm... Maybe they all go find their own corner and live in peace. No need to fight over anything. Case (a).

7. Now then let's assume they land on an Island of Headhunters that want to put every outsider in a pot.... Hmm... think all six would hang together? This is case(c).

So... if we were to engineer a world were everyone could have their own nice space... all would be best.

But everytime I say that... people want to say it's somehow communist.

I tend to think it's rather Utopian myself. A world of complete equal peers.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MMMMMM,
Could we also say it's matched by Isreali facism?

The mid-east situation really does seem to me to lend credence to the idea that some groups simply cannot get along and the most peaceful solution is for them to just live apart.

Unfortunately, all this desire to own the holy land seems to keep these people at it.

Though I don's subscribe to any formal religion, it seems to me god could care less who's living in Jerusalem.... it's all His anyway! And supposedly we are all His children.

Though I often find myself asking about the Chistian faith... Who exactly was it that had to be paid for our sins? Why did god invent sin? Why did he create Lucifer. Why does everything that lives have to feed on something else that lives, and in that context would arguabley have a soul.

It all seems highly illogical to and painfully bloody to me.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Any law the puts a quota on.

That's the same as saying, "You must have".

For example, if I start a business and want to contract with the gov't.

If I choose to work for a company that wants to do business with the Gov't, then there's going to be a "Diversity" policy. De Fact this boxes me in since I wasn't born rich enough to not work.

Any law that says I can't refuse clients for any reason I so choose.

If I build an apt. building, any law that says I can't stop it from becoming black, green, white or whatever.

Sincerely,
AA

[Michael Davis]

1) Inductively making the racial judgments you make because of experiences with specific individuals doesn't make sense.

2) You are absolutely a racist. You discuss things as if your positions are reasoned and legitimate, when in fact they are untenable. If only people like you did not exist, we wouldn't need things like affirmative action. Your point about the apartment building in a later post is truly awful. If things were as you want them, the racial stereotypes would be perpetuated because of your actions, i.e. your refusal to allow an African-American family in an apartment building creates the type of class system that causes fools like yourself to jump to ridiculous conclusions. I suppose there is some irony in this, but it is truly hideous. If you want to define "racist" as some term that doesn't include you, hey, that's all well and good, but it's just a semantic game.

3) Just because others are racists doesn't make it okay to be one yourself.

4) Anybody and everybody who has ever said and meant something like "I once had a black girlfriend" or "my best friend is black" is on some level a racist. Sometimes it is subtle, but the type of thinking behind thoughts like this is racist. Granted, we all may think like this on some level, but there is a difference between a snap, regrettable thought and using these foolish thoughts in an argument. Whenever somebody says this, he is floundering on racist waters.

5) Your boat example is not only incorrect, it is absolutely irrelevant. It is lame, incoherent, and sounds as if it were taken from an Aryan nation website.

6) Whether or not you call it communism, that is exactly the world you envision. I don't have a problem with it, but it's communism. Interesting, though, that in your real life your actions and thoughts are contrary to your idealistic goals.

7) It's okay to be white, it's just not okay to be you.

8) "And any kids that came out of it, would be coming into a very unfriendly world." Hey, I agree with you here. I am a complete misanthrope and rue my birth. I have decided to do everything in my power (:D) not to have kids for this reason. It sounds like you have taken this attitude and drawn some awful non sequiturs.

[ACPlayer]

You have the right to not associate with any one you dont want to.

If you want the privilege of a job (a job is not a right or an entitlement) then you have to conform to the requirements set forth for that job. These requirements range from having mixed race colleagues to wearing clean clothes. However, you dont have to take the job.

Incidentally, i have been a consultant for years, and there is nothing that forces me to take a client i dont want to.

If you open a business for the public then you have to serve the public, but you dont have to open a business for the public. There is nothing forcing you to open a business.

So, this stuff about being forced to associate with people you dont want to is horsepucky.

[Michael Davis]

You try living with a Haitian invasion in your neighborhood.

[Roy Munson]

Olympic Weight Lifting and Power Lifting, two sports that arguably require the greatest levels of size and strength, are not dominated by athletes of African origin.

As far as measuring the level that one is "cerebral", many would argue that SAT scores are a limited measure of ones intellectual capabilities. Knowledge is not limited to a 3 hour test of English and Mathematics.

[ACPlayer]

I'd still argue I'm not a racist. I don't want to hurt anyone. To me racists want to put people in ovens.

Here is the entry in Merriam-Webster dictionary on the definition of a racist:
_____________________________________
One entry found for racism.


Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
Date: 1936
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective
__________________________________________

A racist who puts people in a brick ovens is a murdering racist.

[adios]

[MMMMMM]

I have no problem with much you say here. However, even if Israel had never existed, Islamic law is essentially the marriage of fascism and religion.

Yes, there are oddities--some bloody--about the Christian faith, and I certainly don't understand it all. However the New Testament doesn't call for the murder of non-believers. Nor do Christian preachers issue murder-warrants as religious decrees or fatwas against those who slander their religion. Nor do fanatical Christians routinely become suicide bombers, nor do horribly repressed peoples today other than Arabs or Muslims turn to suicide bombing.

There is a different mindset so far apart from Western rational thinking that what Kipling wrote may in large part be true: "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet."

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Michael,
First, you need to realize that some things do fall along racial lines. Whether it's politically correct or not. Great Danes and Chihuahuas are both dogs. But they are quite different.

Also, can you deny that most people marry and have kids withing thier own race? Racial selectivty is built in to some extent. (Again, I have no way to know what percent is nature vrs. nurture.)

Now for the point for point stuff.

1.) My experiences seem to be in line with objective statistical data available on any demographics website. I'm sorry but Blacks do have a higher AIDS rate, Higher violent Crime rate and Higher out-of-wedlock birth rate. Leans toward meaning blacks are more agressive and sexually indiscriminate to me.

2.) Arguing semantics is waste. Label me whatever you want. I really don't care. But don't limit my rights by your views.

The gov't telling me what to do with my assets is wrong. Another example. Here in Denver I have to give my car to the emmisions inspections person to drive through. To be honest, I don't want anyone in my car of any color that I don't choose. It's an asset I had to trade xx years of my life to acquire. However, if a black is put into the emmisions station by some quota... well far as I'm concerned I want that even less. Far as I'm concerned the car is defiled as soon as he gets in. I'd just as soon burn it at that point if I was richer. In such a case the LAW is forcing the black into my space under penalty of LAW. Cops have GUNS. Which MY taxes paid for. This is wrong.

3) Two wrongs do not make a right. I agree. But choosing to stay away from some folks doesn't strike me as a wrong. Just a personal choice.

4) The point here is that my opinions grew over time. They weren't encultured by being born in Alabama or whatever. I had to learn the hard way, what is what.

5) The boat example is 100% on the money. Only an overarching threat or complete non-competition would set this stuff to rest. (Or perhaps Jesus or aliens setting foot on earth. In essence the enlightenment of man. However, I find that is unlikely. Geez, half the techno weenies here can't even remember to wash thier hands in the men's room. To be honest I'm tired of shaking hands with thier d*cks on door knobs. And yes 3 are black and two are "rednecks". Marvelous, what do you suppose afro-smegma and redneck-smegma make? So enlightment is probably out of the question, 'less it comes in a Bud can! :-) )

I do not support the Nazi model. I'm someone who just wants things my own space my own way. You're confusing me with people who want to "Rule for 1000 years".

6) I'm not sure what you think my idealistic goals are, or what my actions are. However, my basic premise is everyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't actively hurt anyone.

However, Ideals and Reality often conflict. Machiavelli once said... "He who pursues what ought for what is, surely pursues his own destruction."

On more than one occasion, not being willing to budge on my ideals has cost me much. My entire life's saving at one point. So be it.

As for communism, I'll be honest. I'm not sure how that's differnt from socialism. But if it revolves around the ideal of little communities of equals... well... that's not what I mean. I don't want to have to be subject to anyones opinions whatsover. I envision it a each individual as an island within an infrastructure that lets all be rich, and no one able to f*ck with anyone else. Wealth and Autonomy are the key words.

FWIW, I saw something about 2 types of socialism. Cooperative like Israeli Kabutz's... and Command, like Castro's Cuba.

Speaking of Cuba. One Cuban gal I knew (mondo beautiful... awesome green eyes..) had a cuban boyfriend her father didn't like... She brought a *black* guy home to meet dad... Dad changed his mind about the cuban guy... who she later married (damn, she got away!). He was a respectable sort anyway. Aerospace engineer. Point? Well apprently Cuban dads have some racist tendencies.

7.) Well... you've sunk to the level of Ad Hominem attack. Guess you're out of ammo.

8) Forgive me, I had to look up misanthrope. No idea what it meant prior to now. Anyway, I wouldn't want anyone to be a clone of me or to have lived my life either. I'm no ideal, despite a lot of effort. Besides, my genetics suck.

Actually I like people, just some of thier behaviors get under my skin. Most people really do seem totally unaware of what they're doing most of the time.

But then I've been accused of being a detail fanatic. I suppose it's like many things, a matter of perspective.

To be honest, I'd like to have a few daughters. I figure women are at the center of life, and well, us guys are sort of perhipheral.

Given that point of view, I guess you know I don't care for the Islamic treatment of women.

But like you, I agree, I'm not sure it's such great world to bring them into. Especially with the AIDS, and Birth rate statistics of the group that you are arguing *for* and the media seems to be pushing.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi ACPlayer,
I don't believe any particular race is superior. Just more adapted to the conditions of the continent or geography that it evolved under.

For example I've often believed that Tiger Woods pre-eminence in golf comes from having the stategic mindset of his asian mother, and the musculature of his african father.

I never said "whites are superior". Just, "I'd rather avoid africans and even materials and textiles from the african continent. Further, that I don't want the law interfering with this choice on any level.

By the same token, I accept it if people of other persuasions don't care to be around whites. Some asians and hispanics are this way. Fine by me as long as no one's being aggressive and violent.

For example, seem Jews and Islamics just cannot live together... well OK... then don't! Just don't fight either.

Sort of like the old joke about, "It hurts when I do *this* doctor....Well then stop doing *that*!!!"

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Michael,
Here's something a potential employer sent me to fill out... Now if race isn't important, why are they asking???

Because apparently it is?

Sincerely,
AA


Please read definitions below & mark only ONE box in Part 1

AMERICAN INDIAN-ALASKAN NATIVE: A person with origins
in any of the original peoples of North America who
maintains cultural identification through tribal
affiliation or has a community recognition as an
American Indian or Alaskan Native.
[ ] Female
[ ] Male

ASIAN OR PACIFIC ISLANDER: A person with origins in any of the
original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, the Indian
Sub-continent or the Pacific Islands. This area includes, for
example, China, Japan, Korea, the Philippine Republic, and Samoa;
and, on the Indian Subcontinent, includes India, Pakistan,
Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Sikkim and Bhutan.
[ ] Female
[ ] Male

BLACK: An individual, not of Hispanic origin, with origins in any
of the Black racial groups in Africa.
[ ] Female
[ ] Male

HISPANIC: A person of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or
South American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless
of race. This does not include persons of Portuguese decent or
persons from Central or South America who are not of Spanish
origin or culture.
[ ] Female
[ ] Male

WHITE: An individual, not of Hispanic origin, with origins in any
of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa, or the Middle
East.
[ ] Female
[ ] Male


Part 2

Please mark the applicable boxes below.

Vietnam Era Veteran?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Other Eligible Veteran?
see www.opm.gov/veterans/html/vgmedal2.htm (http://www.opm.gov/veterans/html/vgmedal2.htm) for qualification information
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

DO NOT FILE THIS FORM WITH EMPLOYMENT APPLICATION

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi ACPlayer,
False, when I partake of gov't services I've already paid for, I have to deal with whatever agent they've chosen.

Any law the prohibits my from discriminating is limiting my freedom of choice at gun point. With guns my taxes paid for.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Points well taken.

But I believe the weight lifters you are talking about are really walking test tubes full of ergogenics.

I agree, SATs aren't the full picture.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MMMMMM,
Hmmm... Guess I wrongfully gave you the idea that I believe Christianity is worse that Islam.

I think they've both had thier times. The Inquisition comes to mind.

I was just pointing out that the Christian system seems to have some rather paradoxical points about it.

Besides, if any of these religious warring factions lived up to thier ideals, they would be warring, right?

I guess I just believe the world is f*cked from the get-go and we just don't seem to ever really do anything about it.

Sincerely,
AA

[MMMMMM]

I didn't think you thought that Christianity was worse.

I was just elaborating a bit in the post above...since many seem to think that there is little to choose between the two religions (if you're going to choose, that is). And yes, Christianity has had its moments like the Inquisition, but grew beyond them. Islam is still about the same as it was many centuries ago, and shows little promise of reforming anytime soon. It's also a little hard for it to do so, because the Q'uran is the direct word of Allah as revealed literally to Muhammad, which is good for all time, and the codes of human conduct the Q'uran gives are good for all time too. Hmmm interesting.

I think at least 50% of the reason why the world is f*>#&! is because over 50% of the world can't think straight more than 50% of the time...or something like that. The rest of the problems may be unavoidable.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MMMMMM,
Yes I agree we aren't thinking much of the time. Probably because we're all still chasing Maslow's level 1 (and 2 :P ) most of the time.

My attitude toward religion is pretty simple. "Believe what you want. Don't push it on others. Don't hurt children or little animals in the name of your religion."

Sincerely,
AA

[Cyrus]

"Any law the prohibits my from discriminating is limiting my freedom of choice at gun point."

I believe that anti-segregation laws are enforced in the U.S. at the State level in the public school system only. I assume that if there's an effective segregation policy (e.g. only Catholics; only Chinese) in a private school, the U.S. government can do little about it.

But, once again, I could be mistaken.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi M.B.E.
That's probably as it should be. *Public* schools are funded by intermingled funds and should not be discriminatory. I believe it you are paying for it, you are entitled to it. No matter who you are.

However, bussing and forced integration I disagree with. One of the reasons I may want to live in a particular area is it's demographics. So I'd want that reflected in the school at the local level. So segregation by choice I'd support, but not by force.

That's been one of my points throughout this thread. The law should permit personal choices as people see fit, and not infinge on them. However, since we are all taxed under penalties if we don't pay, I cannot argue that public schools should have demographics any different than thier surrounding areas.

But once you cross the line into personally funded, that's where I draw a line.

I think I used the example of how 9 or 10 counties in Colorado literally take your car away from you for emmission testing as an example of something I thought was intrusive. Some might argue "driving is a priviledge". I disagree. Once I've had to pay taxes for the roads, pay principle and interest on the car loan, etc. I consider it a right. Why? Because I had to trade some part of my life to get those dollars. (And to be honest, the exchange rate on an hour of my life ain't all that great! :-) So it takes a lot of hours traded! )

Sincerely,
AA