Interesting hand

I played this hand yesterday and I don't have the hand history with me right now. I could look it up when I get home but I'll give you an overview of what happened:

10 handed NL table with big blind being $.25. I don't remember how preflop went but I raised K/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif and there was one guy in front of me (I'll call him ep) and one behind me (lp) After the flop.

I had no reads on ep but lp was in every hand to the river with anything, so basically he was just more money in the pot and I saw him make some pretty big bluffs with nothing at all.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
ep checked, I bet $2, lp called, ep called.

Turn: Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif
ep checked, I checked, lp checked.

River: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (ouch)
ep bet $5 (exactly what I wanted but the diamond sucked), I raised him all in for 20 more cents, lp folded, and ep called.

Ok now, before you start flaming me for checking the turn...think about my options. If someone had a flush draw, he was staying in the hand anyways and I probably wouldn't have folded my trip queens even if I bet the turn, got called, then had to call all in on the river when the diamond fell. If no one had a flush draw, someone could try a big all in bluff or something when I acted like I had overcards or was scared of those two queens. I'm a limit player who just switched to nl...in limit I woulda bet this without a second thought but the fact that a bluff could have been easily induced in this pot made me try it. What do you think?

[orange]

Raising KQo 10-handed is game dependent IMO, and I usually refrain from doing it. PF isn't the problem. Stack sizes/pot sizes would help as well.

There isn't any reason to check the turn. If he has a flush draw, fine, at least charge him for it. Letting him see it for free is suicide, and you might as well push the edge while you have it. You gave him infinite odds to outdraw you.

But because you obviously lost to a rivered flush, therein lies the problem. 3/4 the pot on the flop, pot the turn, and if you lose to the flush, so be it.

[People_Mover]

[ QUOTE ]

There isn't any reason to check the turn. If he has a flush draw, fine, at least charge him for it. Letting him see it for free is suicide, and you might as well push the edge while you have it. You gave him infinite odds to outdraw you.

pot the turn, and if you lose to the flush, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. No free cards unless of course you turned a boat which did not happen. Even then, I probably still bet it.

[MINETZ]

if hes going to put in his money with or without bet the turn, give him bad odds, not infinite odds, especially if you are going to pay him off whne he hits.
Noah

Just bet the pot on the flop, you likely have the best hand, and the board is draw heavy.

On the turn, you almost certainly have the best hand. Bet the pot again, there are so many draws or calling hands, make some money.

Finally, if I got to the river the way you did, I'd just call his lead.

[amoeba]

that river all in is really bad.

what is he supposed to call you with?

The river all in was for 20 more cents. He wasn't gonna fold for 20 cents in a $20 pot. Also, he only bet $5 because that was pretty much my stack (I had $5.2).

Can anyone show me the math behind betting the turn instead of checking? I mean like set up probabilities and find expected value for each case. That would be helpful.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone had a flush draw, he was staying in the hand anyways and I probably wouldn't have folded my trip queens even if I bet the turn, got called, then had to call all in on the river when the diamond fell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but are flush draws going to put anymore money in the pot if the river ISN'T a diamond? This is why we make flush draws pay - to draw. You bet on the turn because he will pay you there with a flush draw, whether it gets there or not. If you let him see a free card, and the river blanks, you bet, he folds, no money gained. If you let him see a free card, and the river's a diamond, you either call a small bet or fold, and either lose the pot to the flush draw, or get scared against a weaker hand (like middle pair, or a weaker Q).

That's why you bet the turn. Weaker hands will call you, and flush draws will call you there too, but probably won't call you when the river doesn't give them that third diamond. This is basic reasoning against flush draws. Just because 'he'll always stay in' doesnt mean you shouldn't bet - it means you SHOULD bet!

[amoeba]

oh sorry. thought it was 20 more dollars.

I'll do the match in a little bit if nobody jumps in before then.