Overpair that keeps getting worse

[Abagadro]

Wondering if a river bet in this hand might have taken it down.

5/10 (a kill up from 2-5)

I post the kill so am already in the hand.

I get 88 in MP. UTG calls, I check it and LP player checks it. All others fold.

Flop comes down 4 4 7, suits unimportant. UTG bets out. He is a drunk newb. I just KNOW he has a crappy 7. So I raise. LP goes into this wild facial gyration of pain. He is not acting as he is not tricky at all. I'm therefore pretty sure he doesn't have a 4 as he calls like someone has a gun to his head. UTG calls.

Turn is a 6. UTG bets out again. I'm still putting him on a 7, so I raise him again. LP looks like he is going to the dentist for a root canal. He hems and haws to himself and then calls. UTG calls too.

River is a 3, putting a 4 straight on the board. Now I'm not very happy. UTG now check to me. I figure someone had to be drawing to the straight and check. LP checks it through! Doh!

UTG shows my predicted K7o. LP throws his up before I even start to and takes it down w/ QQ. I muck em.

Anyone think a river bet may have pushed out the QQ?

Was my flop and turn agression misguided?

[smd]

I doubt another bet would have driven out LP. I am surprised he played it so passively. My guess is he feared you had a 4, but was playing it til the end in case you had a 7-good kicker or an overpair.

[eMarkM]

LP is a wuss, but surely would have meekly called down your last bet if he cold called two on the flop and turn. The way he played it made me feel he had a pocket pair of some kind--likely bigger than yours--though I wouldn't have guessed as high as QQ. I don't think overcards call a turn raise. Check obvioulsy is good on the end, saves a bet, though I would have called had LP bet.

[Bob T.]

Anyone think a river bet may have pushed out the QQ?

Was my flop and turn agression misguided?


No, No. I probably would have bet the river, and I would have been surprised to lose.

[Eric P]

You guys have to be kidding, you would have played your QQ harder? Playing with normal low limit players there is almost surely a 4 out there. We know there isn't just from Bob's post. If you would play this queen to the ground then that is trouble. With two bets to the Queens each time is is just a crying call, i bet he was suprised to win. And checking your eights was good too. There is no way the Queen is folding, because no one was representing that draw, and he is already crying

[CrackerZack]

Because it is low-limit there has to be a 4 out there? What? Are you even remotely serious? there were only 3 people in this hand, what do you think the other 7 folded? Ace through tens? Even the blinds didn't come along.

First off if this table is usually this tight, I would've raised the 8s after the limper, especially if he is weak.

On the flop the raise is mandatory. Like the turn raise, and I would've bet the river, and been shocked to lose when it was just called.

As for LP, he played this the worst of the 3 by a lot. QQ, against a weak limper and a blind hand, and he doesn't raise pre-flop? Flop is ragged, the only thing he has to fear is that our hero has a 4 since he checked his kill blind and hand could be anything, but with 2 being out there its not likely. On the flop, its bet and raised to him, I would 3-bet this every time. The entire hand plays differently after that. I assume UTG would still call with his top pair, but he certainly isn't gonne lead at the pot on the turn. If LP got check-raised on the turn he might have something to think about but until then i'm 3-betting the flop every time and betting the turn and river in this hand. LP played the entire thing like a calling station right down to the "ugh, i have to call" faces.

[lil']

I think you should raise pre-flop. A nice pocket pair, 1 drunk limper and you already have money in the pot. Raise!

No way is this guy folding to a bet on the river.

[Bob T.]

For starters, I am raising preflop with My QQ. If I raise preflop, then put in another raise on the flop, and then I get played with, then I'll be concerned about the four. Until then, I'm thinking that the pair of fours are great cards for me, because they make my two pair the best two pair, unless someone has done something goofy with AA, or KK. The only reason he had to make these crying calls,is that he played the hand so passively, that he had no idea where he was at.

Dynasty played JJ like this after the flop in the 3-6 home game thread, and Clarkmeister, and Vehn took him to task for it. Why would you expect that that people are going to like QQ's play any better here?

[Eric P]

Sorry i think you got the wrong idea from this post. First of all i was assuming this is like the tables i play on: loose weak for the most part, minus a few players. averaging like six or so on the flop. I would of course raise the flop with my QQ and then if the action still plays this way then i don't know what i would do. I am not questioning 88's play, in fact it's probably exactly what i would have done. Honestly i would 3-bet this 100% of the time with queens, then if they both called, i would probably just call the turn when the 8's bet. You can probably assume at this point that the 7 is going to fold, unless he is really bad, which he very well could be. My point was just that people are saying "QQ is a baby" just cause he is cold-calling 2, instead of rasing an ENTIRELY possible set of 4's? That is unreasonable, and in my experience if you aren't willing to not give your overpair full fuel on occasion you can take some heavy losses.

[Abagadro]

I thought about that aspect afterwards too. I figured with a kill pot (i.e. no free blinds and the table often (but not always) tightens up when it goes from 2-5 spread to 5/10 structured) I wouldn't be facing too many players and 88s weren't strong enough to commit another 5 or 10 bucks (at this particular game for some reason you will get 3 bet without justification when you raise your kill because people think you are trying to buy it (shrug)).

Its tough though because the looseness/tightness swings with the kill and doesn't always follow regular logic like you think. I would definitely raise here with a pair of 9s. Not exactly sure why. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Louie Landale]

When you described LP's behavior I put him on 99 or TT.

Yes, you can both bet-for-value AND bluff at the same time, even if you don't know which one you are doing.

The over-riding factor here is this: those that pause and calmly try to figure out what to do are a favorite to play well; those that pause out of anquish are a BIG favorite to make a mistake, not matter what they have. So I would have bet into that player pretty much not matter what happened.

- Louie

Its that same in those driving obstical courses: those that are aware of the obsticals but focus on the path between them are going to pass a LOT more often than those that focus on the obsticals themselves.

[MD_]

There is no doubt in my mind that you lose at poker. YOU have got to be kidding.

-MD