how badly did I play this 1/2 NL live cash game hand ? thanks guys!

Hello again!,

Got another hand I was curious about, not sure If I played this one correctly or not.

Okay this is how it went down.

1/2 No Limit live cash game, I had been playing at this table for a good hour, hadnt done much been playing like a rock mostly, but was about about 40-50 for a total stack of about 230.

Then this hand came up, I believe I was early position with K / K Spade/Club, so I raised to 12, two positions to my left someone re-raised to 30.

Everyone folds around to me and I ask for time, I am pretty sure that he probaly has AA here, so I decide its worth it to call a flop and see what develops.

So I call the 30 dollar re-raise, there is now about 63 in the pot, the flop comes 10 7 4 Club all clubs. So im sitting there with the KK one with clubs and im thinking perhaps I should put it in now, but instead i check.

The other player goes all in, and again I ask for time.


What would you do ?

[capone0]

Put the chips in the middle. How tight is this person? Is he capable of only reraising with AA, could he also have KK and you be on a freeroll. He could also have QQ, or something similar. The only hands your worried about are sets which seem inconceivable on that board and Ac, if he has AcAx so be it, but I wouldn't mind getting my money in the center here. If you fold, it's not a bad fold b/c your not getting that great of return on your money. Personally I would have put it all in PF, but that's just me.

Live NL games, players are capable of reraising with alot worse than AA, I've seen a guy at a 1/2 NL game made it around 30 to go with pocket 33s on a limp reraise.

Hey..ya this hand was a major dissapointment to me.

I ended up making the call, I put him on QQ ..I just have a hard time believing people actualy have the AA when im in a situation like that.


He ended up having AA, but no club ace, so there was still hope however, no club on turn or river so he takes down my entire stack. This was reallly dissapointing to me as I have stated above because last week I went to the casino and lost my entire stack in a very simmiliar way with KK vs AA.

So thats two times in the last 2 weeks that KK has cost me both my buy ins.

[jba]

did he have you covered?

yeah he had me covered by about 75 or something

[mmmmmbrother]

you raise was much too big before the flop.
you cant put him on aces that easily.
easy call.

[capone0]

Let's just say your going to lose alot of money with KK vs AA, unless your lucky enough to get an ace to pop on the flop. Most times you won't be beat, here you were what close to even money on the flop, you didn't suck out but things happen. I wouldn't worry about it, most people can't make this fold especially at 1/2 NL. There are too many times at low limits when players overplay their hands, QQ, JJ, AK were also possiblities. KK especially with the clubs on the board is definitely hard to fold in that spot.

[capone0]

have you played much live NL cash games? I play in Tunica (uncapped buyins) and the normal open is between 12 and 18 while online it would be 6-10. Occasionally you'll get the guy opening for 6, but most times it's for 17.

Live games are always that way atleast everyone I've been to in Vegas and Tunica.

[capone0]

At that game is the only possible re-raise AA? If it is then you can fold but most times from most people it's not. I might reraise that with KK or QQ even AK if it's the right person (hardly true). I wouldn't worry about this situation, it happens, you have to deal with it, and you can't do much about it especially at low limit games.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello again!,

Got another hand I was curious about, not sure If I played this one correctly or not.

Okay this is how it went down.

1/2 No Limit live cash game, I had been playing at this table for a good hour, hadnt done much been playing like a rock mostly, but was about about 40-50 for a total stack of about 230.

Then this hand came up, I believe I was early position with K / K Spade/Club, so I raised to 12, two positions to my left someone re-raised to 30.

Everyone folds around to me and I ask for time, I am pretty sure that he probaly has AA here, so I decide its worth it to call a flop and see what develops.

So I call the 30 dollar re-raise, there is now about 63 in the pot, the flop comes 10 7 4 Club all clubs. So im sitting there with the KK one with clubs and im thinking perhaps I should put it in now, but instead i check.

The other player goes all in, and again I ask for time.


What would you do ?

[/ QUOTE ]

1/2 live in a casino? Call, and its not even close. And I have no problem with the way you played it. I like pushing preflop, but calling, and then pushing if no ace comes off on a non-threatening board is not bad either. You're not folding KK preflop at a 1/2 live game, you're just not, it would be silly.

[pzhon]

In my first live game, I played rather tightly. When I first raised, the player to my right exclaimed, "Oh my, the quiet guy in the corner raised!" Several people still called, including one with A4 who flopped TPNK and called my push when I rivered a set. Later, I decided to take advantage of my tight image and raised in early position with KJ. Someone called with AJ and another guy reraised me with QTs.

Even if you have been playing tightly, and even if other people have noticed, don't assume they are making good adjustments to your play. Don't assume the reraise was KK or AA.

On the flop, you are far behind the nut flush or AA with the ace of clubs, which would have no need to push. You have 11 outs against red AA, and win 42% (http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1203046), or $195 back from the $463 pot for your $200 call. If he has red kings, he won't like the flop, but might push, and you have a freeroll giving you $315. If he has black queens, he'll like that flop and might push, but you will get back $432, for a gain of $232. You have to be very certain you are behind AA and calling is wrong by $5 to make up for the times calling is right by $115 or $232. You can't be, so this is an easy call.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
you raise was much too big before the flop.
you cant put him on aces that easily.
easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

For a live casino game, no, his raise was almost too little. YOu can raise to $12 with kings live, because youor'e still gonna get 2-3 callers. Hell, I routinely raise to $15 live with a hand like that and know i'm getting at least one caller. Sure, 10x the bb is a lot, but if you know you will be called, and you have KK, why not raise that much?

[mmmmmbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you raise was much too big before the flop.
you cant put him on aces that easily.
easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

For a live casino game, no, his raise was almost too little. YOu can raise to $12 with kings live, because youor'e still gonna get 2-3 callers. Hell, I routinely raise to $15 live with a hand like that and know i'm getting at least one caller. Sure, 10x the bb is a lot, but if you know you will be called, and you have KK, why not raise that much?

[/ QUOTE ]

if thats the case then whats better two callers of a 15 dollar bet or 10 callers of a 8 dollar bet

[capone0]

I guess you like playing against 10 players, b/c against the field, your likely to lose with KK unless a K drops.

[mmmmmbrother]

true but you will always have a huge equity advanage.
but then again you dont play live to make money you play to have fun and or win

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you like playing against 10 players, b/c against the field, your likely to lose with KK unless a K drops.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, KK is a big underdog if several players with random hands go to the river. However, usually you will bet on the flop, and people with weak hands and weak draws will fold. The chance of getting outflopped is much lower than the chance to be behind by the river, particularly if there is no ace on the flop.

Even without the ability to protect your hand against weak draws, you still have a huge advantage. Par in a 10-way pot is to win 10%, and KK wins far more than that, 26% against random hands. Every dollar you put in returns $2.60. You get only about $1.65 back against one random hand.

Your mistake was checking after the flop. Had you pushed instead of checking, he would've had to put you on the flush, and folded. You already knew that if he went all in you were going to have to call with your king high draw. You also knew that he probably had you beat with AA. at that point, you only had 2 moves, All-in, or all out, NOT checking.

[tripdad]

in your first post, you said you put your opponent on AA, and that was the reason you just called. in your 2nd post, you said you put him on QQ, and that was the reason you called his all-in. what changed your mind once the flop hit?

FWIW. i play the hand the same as you because i can't put any opponent on AA, and i don't fold KK preflop ever in a cash game. had anyone called between the re-raisor and myself preflop, i push all in with a clean conscience every time. if i lose, i lose. as for post flop there, if i had red kings, i would lead out for 1/2 pot, and fold to a raise of any size.

cheers!

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Your mistake was checking after the flop. Had you pushed instead of checking, he would've had to put you on the flush, and folded. You already knew that if he went all in you were going to have to call with your king high draw. You also knew that he probably had you beat with AA. at that point, you only had 2 moves, All-in, or all out, NOT checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 1/2 no limit live (live being key), and villain has pocket aces. Villain is about 90 percent to call a push. Not saying that pushing here is the wrong move, I think its probably the right one, just saying that it doesn't give you as much fold equity as your post indicates.

[squallA964]

I play in a similar game to this, $12 standard raise, lots of action with weak hands. I play very tightly and still get 2-3 callers every time I play a hand. I even make fun of them for playing hands against me by pointing out how tight I am, or I even say "Another caller? YES!!!" before the flop even comes out. And they always pay me off. It's true that someone eventually gets lucky with 10-9s or something like that, but you can usually even sniff those out depending on the player.

But in this case, with your hand and flop, I'd push All-In without a second thought. If you're gonna call after the flop, you might as well be the one pushing it. Yeah, you ran into AA this time, but you still even had about 40% chance to win it anyway. I'd say 80% of the time you're gonna be way ahead of some shitty hand, and get paid off huge.

[robertsonjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
This is 1/2 no limit live (live being key), and villain has pocket aces. Villain is about 90 percent to call a push. Not saying that pushing here is the wrong move, I think its probably the right one, just saying that it doesn't give you as much fold equity as your post indicates.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but if hero knows he is willing to call all-in, it is still advantageous to push first. If, by your calculation, you can get aces to fold 10% of the time, that is still better than calling and getting them to fold never.

That is unless, you think the 10% folding equity you could have against potential aces is less valuable than the possibility of inducing a push from a lesser hand that would have folded to your all-in.