Another silly fold?

[lil feller]

B&M 10/20 (I know, I know small stakes. If nobody here feels like responding, i'll repost it there...)

SB is clever TAG, only other "above average" player in the game. UTG is weak/tight with very predictable standards on all streets.

Preflop:

UTG limps. This means she doesn't have a big ace, and if she has a pair its 8's or smaller. Likely range is 88 on down, QJs, QTs, JTs, and other small suited/unsuited broadway cards. Folded to me in the h/j, I raise with A9o. Folded to SB who calls. BB folds, UTG calls. Three of us.

Flop:

9-7-5

SB bets. UTG calls. I raise. SB 3bets UTG calls and I fold.

Standard?

lf

Retarded, and I'm pretty weak tight. At the very least you peel, but this hand makes it to show down almost every time for me because I raised preflop and hit TPTK in a decent sized pot.

[YoureToast]

SB has overpair, K9, Q9 or a set and UTG has a set. You lose. Good fold.

[vmacosta]

You don't even want to see a turn in this large pot closing the action! I see your reasoning for raising, but I still muck PF.

[DpR]

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SB is clever TAG, only other "above average" player in the game.

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It seems that no one else at the table is above average other than the SB.

sorry, couldn't resist.......this is not good, and particularly so given your descriptions.

[lil feller]

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SB is clever TAG, only other "above average" player in the game.

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It seems that no one else at the table is above average other than the SB.

sorry, couldn't resist.......this is not good, and particularly so given your descriptions.

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I don't mind the sarcasm, as long as you provide an explanation. I'm in the hijack. The button is tight, so are the blinds. Its very likely i'm in front of the UTG limper, and if not she's so predictable playing against her postflop is extremely easy. Are you criticizing preflop? I thought this was pretty standard.

The flop is what might be questionable, hence the post, but I'm really getting tired of people like you posting "this is bad", and then not bothering to explain why. Why bother posting in a strategy forum if you aren't going to include any strategy in your posts?

As far as the flop goes, if you think its so horrible, give me a range of hands for the UTG limper (after she calls 2 more cold on the flop, which obviously a weak/tight player won't do with overcards) that doesn't have me drawing to running outs?

lf

[steveyz]

I think you are still ahead here. Couldn't UTG have something like T8s? or even maybe JTs? Was the board rainbow?

My default here would be to call the 3-bet and see what develops on the turn. If the turn is a blank and SB bets and UTG just calls, I'd put UTG on a draw and raise the turn (and fold if SB 3-bets). Then I'd take a free showdown on most river cards.

UTG could have 10js, 98s, 78s, 67s, all of which will play this way on the flop, if the person with them is weak.

She could also have 88, 10-10, which you have tons of outs against.

I don't see how someone going call, cold call, convinces you they have a set.

[DpR]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SB is clever TAG, only other "above average" player in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems that no one else at the table is above average other than the SB.

sorry, couldn't resist.......this is not good, and particularly so given your descriptions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind the sarcasm, as long as you provide an explanation. I'm in the hijack. The button is tight, so are the blinds. Its very likely i'm in front of the UTG limper, and if not she's so predictable playing against her postflop is extremely easy. Are you criticizing preflop? I thought this was pretty standard.

The flop is what might be questionable, hence the post, but I'm really getting tired of people like you posting "this is bad", and then not bothering to explain why. Why bother posting in a strategy forum if you aren't going to include any strategy in your posts?

As far as the flop goes, if you think its so horrible, give me a range of hands for the UTG limper (after she calls 2 more cold on the flop, which obviously a weak/tight player won't do with overcards) that doesn't have me drawing to running outs?

lf

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Fair enough. Pre flop is standard for me, but there isnt much point in playing that way if you are going to fold to a little pressure on a pretty darn good flop for you.

SB could have a ton of stuff you beat including a worse 9. Limper could have any number of pair and draw hands as well as no pair hands like J10s. 88,66, 89, 78. Thinking you need running outs based on the action so far is way off IMO.

If you want to play it safe, call the 3 bet. Then if limper has the monster you are afraid of she will raise SBs lead on the turn and you can muck. Since she wont put a play on you this is probably a safe way to go.

I'm not putting anyone on a straight or sete quite yet.....

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

Wouldn't SB 3-bet you PF w/ an over pair or fold all mid one gappers?

You've been known to raise a bit light w/ draws in position at cardroom in question. SB might play it that way w/ A7s, 98.

UTG is predictable so it seems like you can find out for sure on turn if you are beat by her. Few people can go for an overcall w/ a set on 4th st.

You're closing the action. I think a peeel is in order. The pot does have 7 BBs.

BTW, you play your position well so a call will make the SB just as nervous as a cap. You might feel more sure after you see his (and UTG's) reaction to the turn card.

[Fillamoore]

I really dont see how the middle to low suited connectors are included in the range of hands...what weak/tite player limps utg with a weak speculative hand? Not many i know of...some fairly loose players will even throw those away...i can see MAYBE 9T or JTs but still feel like limper has set of 77's, waiting to throw in a raise on 4th street. For 1 small bet though, theres no way i fold here. Even if you are drawing to running outs, its worth 1 more bet to see what utg does on turn after sb leads. If turn is a brick, sb leads and utg simply calls, you can call pretty easily as sb could be playing a weaker 9 and utg drawing. If sb checks and utg bets, you can fold, if sb bets and utg raises you can fold. Either way, its 14.5 to 1, not even counting the implied odds should you be drawing to live outs that connect. I call and see what happens on 4th street.

[lil feller]

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UTG could have 10js, 98s, 78s, 67s

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No. She couldn't. She's weak/tight remember, none of these, with the possible exception of JTs are in her preflop range. There's no way she cold calls 2 more bets on the flop w/ JTs.

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She could also have 88, 10-10, which you have tons of outs against

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A definate posibility. I felt, however, if she had TT she would have raised the flop. 88 was a possibility that I considered, but honestly thought she was more likely to fold that hand when stuck between the two aggressors then she was to call with it.

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I don't see how someone going call, cold call, convinces you they have a set.

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Its a combination of things, and keep in mind she's not the only one in the hand. Her preflop standards remove many of the hands that she "might" play that way. Furthermore there's no way a weak/tight is colding calling the 2nd and 3rd bet with a gutshot, or with naked overs. There was no flush draw (I might have forgot to mention the board was rainbow).

Also, doesn't SB's lead, into a player he know will raise, look like a hand that wants action? I wasn't sure that UTG had a set, but I was pretty sure one of them did.

lf

[lil feller]

Thats what i'm talking about. Good old fashioned discussion.

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Pre flop is standard for me, but there isnt much point in playing that way if you are going to fold to a little pressure on a pretty darn good flop for you.


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Anybody that knows me knows that I don't crumble under pressure, unless i'm pretty sure i'm drawing dead or close to it.

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SB could have a ton of stuff you beat including a worse 9

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I considered that. He had, however, earlier in the session shown an affinity for c/r hands that needed protection (obviously you can't know that). His bet reaked of strength. He's smart. He know's i'm going to bet if checked to and he knows i'm going to raise if he bets. yet he bets anyway, instead of opting to c/r. that says to me that his hand is not, in his opinion, in need of protecting. He had also cold called w/ AA-QQ preflop earlier in the game, and then went bonkers preflop. Initially I thought he was the one with the set.

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could have any number of pair and draw hands as well as no pair hands like J10s. 88,66, 89, 78

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She's weak/tight. They don't play 89s and 78s UTG. She might have 88 or 66, and that was the other option to overs when she just called the first bet. I don't know too many weak/tights though that voluntarily call 2 cold with and underpair and a gutshot when caught in the middle of 2 aggressive players who have said they like the flop.

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If you want to play it safe, call the 3 bet. Then if limper has the monster you are afraid of she will raise SBs lead on the turn and you can muck. Since she wont put a play on you this is probably a safe way to go.

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This is a good point. I firmly believed I was up against a set or a straight in somebody's hand, or both, and didn't think that even if I turned some outs i'd be getting the right price to draw. Its not like the turn is going to go for one bet, if I'm right about my hand read.

thoughts?

lf

[lil feller]

Unfortunately only the UTG was known to me, i'd never seen the SB before. He had figured out I was aggresive by the time this hand came up, but i'd been showing nothing but strong hands. Some thin value bets, but nothing weak/crazy.

thanks for the position compliment, BTW, I appreciate it. I hope I get to make it friday.

lf

[lil feller]

I appreciate all the comments. I'm normally not so argumentative, and I probably shouldn't have posted the hand, as it is drasticlly read dependant.

Anyway. I folded the flop. The turn blanked off. SB bet, UTG raised and SB auto called.

River blanked. Check/Call.

UTG showed 55 for a flopped set. SB mucked AA face up in disgust. I can understand people's opinion about the flop fold being out of line, but I thought I nailed the read and, had I KNOWN that UTG had a set, I think folding is the right play.

Thanks again for the input, any other comments are appreciated.

lf

[DpR]

Regarding your hand ranges for the opponents, I cannot convince you they are off since you know the players in the game better than me. That said, IMO a weak tight player could have the hands I mentioned and the tricky guy may could have hands he wants to jam rather than protect (there are many of them with that board). He still does not have a reason to be at all certain that he is behind you. In fact with something like 89s he could still reasonably think that he is in the lead.

Bottom line is, your hand is far from defined and there is a board that begs good players to play very aggressive (even if they knew your hand strength) and bad players to cold call - and this was exactly what happened.

The truth will be told on the turn. You gotta be there to see what happens - especially for 1 small bet.

Of course you could be behind here, but I think you are ahead more often than not. Further, as I mentioned in previous post it is an important fact that when you are way behind you are not going to have to put any more money in the pot as you can fold for two bets on the turn.

In your OP you said she (UTG) would play small suited cards. In your follow up response, you said she wouldn't.

[lil feller]

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In your OP you said she (UTG) would play small suited cards. In your follow up response, you said she wouldn't.

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Re-read the OP. I didn't write that part very well, but I meant smaller broadway cards, like QJ and JT and stuff like that.

sorry for the confusion.

lf