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View Full Version : I raise, hit a piece, fold the flop

J. Stew
09-06-2005, 01:35 PM
Mp1 is tight and passive.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds, SB folds.

Torn between raising and folding. Would a tight/passive bet into the pf raiser with less than tp? I felt like he had Ax and if I raised he calls me down the whole way.
Final Pot: 5 BB
Aaron W.
09-06-2005, 01:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Mp1 is tight and passive.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds, SB folds.

Torn between raising and folding. Would a tight/passive bet into the pf raiser with less than tp? I felt like he had Ax and if I raised he calls me down the whole way.
Final Pot: 5 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has Ax, do you want to fold?
bottomset
09-06-2005, 01:36 PM
well you do have 2pair/trips outs
adsman
09-06-2005, 01:39 PM
Villian is tight and passive. So raise it, get your free card and see how the river comes. If he 3-bets you just throw it away.
Hojglad
09-06-2005, 01:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
well you do have 2pair/trips outs

[/ QUOTE ]
And getting like 10:1 here, you better be calling for them. Also, it is a well-known fact that donkeys LOVE to bet flush draws. I see no reason at all to fold this flop unless the bettor turned his cards over and showed you a set.
Bodhi
09-06-2005, 01:41 PM
If your read is good then it's a good fold. Notice how vulnerable you are to redraws assuming no one has an Ace.

Meh, maybe I'm a nit, but the best way to beat the tight-passives I play with is not to pay them off. Assuming he's around 16-18% vpip, and &lt;1.5 af, he's not betting a draw on the flop, and he's not going to bet less than top pair into the pfr.
Bodhi
09-06-2005, 01:42 PM
MP1 isn't a donkey. He's a rock, read the OP more carefully.
Bodhi
09-06-2005, 01:43 PM
Do you give the hero a full 5 outs? I don't.
bottomset
09-06-2005, 01:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If your read is good then it's a good fold. Notice how vulnerable you are to redraws assuming no one has an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

um its you the flopbettor and the SB

redraws aren't a huge concern, since the flopbettor rarely has a FD, outside of the times its Ax /images/graemlins/heart.gif .. occasionally you give a gutshot redraw when you hit a K, and ocassional FD redraw when you hit the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif .. but its not enough to fold here
Hojglad
09-06-2005, 01:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
MP1 isn't a donkey. He's a rock, read the OP more carefully.

[/ QUOTE ]
Believe it or not, even rocks bet flush draws (and they are capable of being donkeys, too). Getting 10:1 here, you just can't fold this flop. If he leads again on a non-heart turn and our hand doesn't improve, I can find a fold - sure. I just don't agree with folding the flop. It would be terrible.
J. Stew
09-06-2005, 01:46 PM
I guess it's close on the flop with 5 outs to a strong hand, is that what you mean?
Aaron W.
09-06-2005, 01:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you give the hero a full 5 outs? I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

With only one player left to act, it's a pretty close to 5 outs. The flush draw is a small concern, but with only 4 players taking the flop (one of whom has folded), discounting more than .5 out is overly conservative. I wouldn't even discount it.
J. Stew
09-06-2005, 01:55 PM
Say I raise the flop, take a free card on the turn, and get bet into on the river ui after two bricks. Do you fold here?

Would you bet the turn if villain checked the flop after your flop raise?

If villain checks the river after checking the turn after you raised his flop bet is it a standard value bet or do you just showdown?
VoraciousReader
09-06-2005, 02:01 PM
I'm not folding the flop getting 10:1, especially in position. You have Q outs, probably K outs, and a bdsd. You seem to think he'll check the turn if you raise. Why not raise, folding to a 3-bet? (I think if a rock 3 bets us, we're looking at 2 pair minimum, and probably shouldn't continue even to the turn.)

If you don't improve on the turn card, check it through and see the river (you can fold if he bets at you again). If you don't improve on the river, fold to a bet.

This is based on your read that 1 BB might buy you 2 cards. With 2nd pair, good kicker, I think that's a good investment.

Edit: Probably should discount for K/images/graemlins/heart.gif per Bodhi and bottomset, but between our bdsd and limited players in the pot...I think it's a wash and still not a fold.
irishpint
09-06-2005, 02:15 PM
i'll call and fold the turn UI. A rock is betting an ace here like 100% of the time- passive players dont lead flush draws into a PFR, sorry. I dont think raising makes much sense because hé isn't folding and he has us beat, we just get to see a showdown for one less small bet.
TomBrooks
09-06-2005, 03:08 PM
FLOP: You are likely behind since MP1 is passive, but a flop call looks OK to me getting odds to improve to two pair or a set. The two hearts on the flop are a potential problem though. Caution is warrented if a third heart comes.

Not all plays are raise or fold. This is a call.
Taxmanrick
09-06-2005, 03:36 PM
I don't think you want to fold here. If you think he's got Ax, great. You have 3Ks, and 2Qs. I'm raising to isolate. See what the turn brings. If you don't improve, check fold the turn.
Ivanapolis
09-06-2005, 03:57 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
Mp1 is tight and passive.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds, SB folds.

Torn between raising and folding. Would a tight/passive bet into the pf raiser with less than tp? I felt like he had Ax and if I raised he calls me down the whole way.
Final Pot: 5 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it correct. If the Mpl is betting here (and he is really tight passive) it's almost certain, that he has at least an ace (and not the flush drow or second pair with weak kicker....). Calling is dumb, if u wonna play, raise, but I think a fold is clearly the better option here.
Additional comment: I think folding with KQ if you have several preflopcallers, if u hit the Q and an A is in the board, cannot be incorrect.
bottomset
09-07-2005, 01:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mp1 is tight and passive.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds, SB folds.

Torn between raising and folding. Would a tight/passive bet into the pf raiser with less than tp? I felt like he had Ax and if I raised he calls me down the whole way.
Final Pot: 5 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it correct. If the Mpl is betting here (and he is really tight passive) it's almost certain, that he has at least an ace (and not the flush drow or second pair with weak kicker....). Calling is dumb, if u wonna play, raise, but I think a fold is clearly the better option here.
Additional comment: I think folding with KQ if you have several preflopcallers, if u hit the Q and an A is in the board, cannot be incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he has AJ tell me how folding is correct, you are in big trouble against AK, AQ and A3 .. but the rest of the Aces aren't so bad. you are getting 10/1 something you never brought up in your post, the odds you are getting, 10/1 is pretty good, 15/1 or higher would make folding a really bad move, given the read so far