10/20 Shorthanded hand

[Ikke]

It's shorthanded, 5 people, with whom I have all played before. It's a mix of two good players, 1 mediocre and two bad.

I have JsJh UTG+1 and open-raise. The button 3 bets, SB and BB both coldcall, as do I.

OK, some player info now.
Button is a very good heads up player; I rarely see him play shorthanded though. I've played with him some time HU, and I think we both respect eachother play. Also, I have been running good in this game, made some succesful moves a good player would recognize, so my image is strong.
SB is a weak player. Too loose preflop and does bluff, but in a rather straight forward manner. I think I have a good read on him.
BB isnt too important in this hand, but is generally weak and bluffs too much.

The flop comes and gives : Qc Qs 4s

It's checked to me, and I bet into the button and preflop raiser. He just calls, as does the SB. (BB folds).

Turn: 5h

SB checks, I check, button bets and we both call.

River: Ts

SB checks, I bet.....

Comments?

Regards

[elysium]

hi ikke
i don't like it here a lot. the button looks like KK or AA although he may have AK. the problem is that if he is a good player heads up, he may raise with those hands and also the flush; and of course a suited QJ. i think you should check-call the river. you have too much against you here.

[DanS]

elysium,
Your lack of reading comprehension isn't funny anymore. Ikke raised from the CO in a 5 handed game, his opponent's range of hands is greater than AA, KK, and QJs. Please stop responding to threads unless you put more effort into your responses, and even then, maybe not.

Dan

[pilchard]

I think checking is the right play here although there are merits in your bet.

If you check there are two things that happen:
A) the button bets:
If this happens and the SB raises you'll be glad you saved the bet and will fold.
Regardless of whether the SB calls (or folds) you are then left with the decision of whether to call. If the SB just calls you'd have to think that you've got him beat and given the pot you'd probably have to call. (so it costs you the same as betting)

B) The Button checks
You probably win (unless SB has TT or flush) and so may have lost a bet or two.

Obviously, betting gives you the opportunity to fold a hand that's better and lets you pick up bets if you have the best hand but how likely is both of these things? If the button has an overpair, the button will probably call even though you are representing a flush. Also, it could get raised and you've wasted a bet.

I think checking is marginally the better play on the river but why not bet the turn. OK you open yourself up to a semibluff from a flush draw but once you check and don't raise you tell everyone you haven't got a Q and they can play more accurately against you whereas you have little information about the other hands.

[togilvie]

I don't play shorthanded that frequently, but I would definitely not bet the river. What worse hands will call you, given that they either three-bet preflop or called 3 cold? 99, AK and ATs are the only ones that come to my mind, and I'm not convinced that 99 will call. I'd definitely fear the flush draw as well.

[bobgreen]

May I query the crowd on one aspect of this scenario?
My first thought was that the button would not call your flop bet with a non-flush-draw AK. The pot offers him 13 to 1 but he has two players yet to act. He is not likely to win unimproved, and the A or K of spades are dangerous. Of course, if a queen is out, he is drawing dead to runner-runner. So, I would not call in his shoes. But I wonder if anyone here, who has played more five-handed that I have, would call the flop bet if he were the button in this case and held a non-flush-draw AK. Thanks.

[Ikke]

OK to recap:

"I have JsJh UTG+1 and open-raise. The button 3 bets, SB and BB both coldcall, as do I."

This is straightforward, although a case could be made for capping at four bets. It doesnt matter too much IMO; nothing interesting yet.

"The flop comes and gives : Qc Qs 4s

It's checked to me, and I bet into the button and preflop raiser. He just calls, as does the SB. (BB folds)."

With the bet I hoped button would raise the remaining two players out in this big pot. But, I wasnt suprised when he just called me. Here's why:

The button is a good player, and I'm sure he's aware that both SB and BB were weak. In this 13SB pot, if either the SB or the BB would have some kind of hand they would most likely not be intimidated
by a raise anyway. Furthermore, from buttons perspective he might get an excellent opportunity on the turn to make a play if I bet into him again. When he just called me, two things could happen IMO. Or he would make a play at me on the turn with an inferior hand, or he's just trying to squeeze the max out of his opponents by letting the SB and BB in cheap.

Then :" Turn: 5h"

This is a total brick. The SB checks. He's a straightforward and weak player. The button, as said, is capable of all kind of moves. I suspected that if I bet I would likely get raised, and I didnt like that prospect.
Also, because IMO the button would bet almost any time if I checked; first ofcourse because he can't give any kind of free cards in this big pot with apparent draw, and by betting he can get a strong read on straight forward SB. Also, my play seems like a flushdraw or hands like AK.

He bet and SB just calls. What a relieve. I was about 95% sure he would raise here if he holds a queen, so in all likelyhood I have SB beat.

On the river the situation changes drastically with the Ts. The flushdraw got there. But SB checks. SB would have bet a flush here. No need to go for a check-raise. Even he knows that it will often get checked around and people have to call here when he bets. So I like it. But now we get again into the mind of the button. OK, he might also know that SB is not likely to have a flush, but hey, that damn player on my right comes out betting again, who could very well have been on a flushdraw all the way. Furthermore, he knows that SB will overcall liberally. With what would it benefit him to raise here? Only a flush or full IMO. As Gift of Gab remarked at the shorthanded forum, the pot is protected by the scare card and the weak SB. I very much doubt that he will raise a queen or worse here, but he would pay off a lot of worse hands, because he knows I can make moves (for instance with an AK hand if I thought I had SB beat, and there was a chance he would fold).

So, coming to the results; the button just called and SB folded. I table my jacks and they are good.
Reviewing the hand history shows that button had pocket 3's.

I was suprised about the responses at the mid stakes forum who didnt give any reasons why betting might be preferable over check-calling. We should try to get more action in the shorthanded forum ;-)

Regards

[Tommy Angelo]

"River: Ts ... SB checks, I bet..... Comments?"

Looks like an auto bet to me. All conditions were in play.

1) You were going to call a bet

2) It is very unlikely he would check behind with a hand that beats yours

3) You can reasonably safely fold to a raise

Ni han.

Tommy

[Duke]

Are you the guy I was playing heads up 15 a few nights ago?

This guy thought a bit like you. The flop comes QQ7, turn 4, river 9, and on both the turn and the river he checked behind me with AQ. I had TT, and heads up I would have been definitely calling, and had considered betting/raising, though I was suspicious of the way he was eyeing those Queens.

He announced that he thought I might be full.

You REALLY have to put people on a larger range of hands in a short handed games. Value bets with marginal hands are KEY to short handed play. I don't claim to be a great short handed player, but my results have been a LOT better in short/heads-up games, probably because those "thin" value bets cost me money in the full games you seem to be better at analyzing.

~D