Playing Looser in low limits...WARNING POTENTIONALLY HAZARDOUS CONTENT

[DcifrThs]

a poster asked me to elaborate on playing looser etc.

a few disclaimers:

1) this is mostly covered in M&M&S (hmmm, Miller and Malmuth=M&M, thats sweet) book(s)

2) i am starting this thread for new posters like the one who asked me to elaborate on it.

3) i am starting a thread unaware if one already existed so dont put a Linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/search.php?Cat=) in a response.

4) the looser play advocated in this post is POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS to somebody NOT ABLE TO PLAY POSTFLOP well. so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont go calling 87s UTG when there are a bunch of nuttty agros behind you b/c i said 87s is a monster low limit hand (which it is after 5 or more limpers)

thanks.

Onto the topic:

In low limit games, in general, people don't play their hands hard. they dont look to extract the max or punish limpers etc. sure you get the 80/40/2 guy occasionally (read: absolute maniac), but for the most part, low limit fish play too loosely, and go way to far with all of their holdings.

this frustrates a tight agressive student of poker b/c he/she (hereafter he) gets drawn out on a lot when there are 8 bad players going to the end. so our friendly neighborhood TAG gets AA cracked by J2o on a K53 board when J2o runner runners a J and a 2 for 2 pair. then our FNTAG gets annoyed and either goes on tilt (raises when he should call or fold or calls when he should fold etc..) or he plays suboptimally against the perpetrator. this behavior, needless to say, is bad for our FNTAG's bankroll.

its also frustrating b/c the J2o guy NEVER BET HIS HAND on the river so it was checked to hero who bet and was called by a winning hand. a table of these bad players is hard to play against playing a TAG style (opening tight from EP raiseing big cards (AQo vs. 8 players isn't a lock) knowing the pot wont be contested shorthanded etc. because your probaility of winning the pot isn't very large. but when you do win its a nice sized pot. further, 1 pair will not win often. be it AQ on A53 board, or AA on a K82 board w/ 8 opponents and a two toned board. those are the types of hands our FNTAG seems to love.

but what about our dear low limit profitable hand friend 75s?? she feels neglected. as she should. our FNTAG is not paying her the attention she deserves. after 1 or two EP or MP limpers, AND THE EXPECTATION OF NO MORE THAN 1 RAISE with EVEN 1 RAISE NOT BEING CERTAINT, she is extremely profitable. the reason is simply a result of the above characteristics of the opponents in low limit.

when you have75s you have a good hand IN THAT SPOT because you will:

1) are assured of a multiway pot

2) gain money and can correctly draw given odds

3) will be able to manipulate opponents into giving you free cards

4) be able to get away easily from this hand

5) will collect BIG BETS when you hit and lose SMALL BETS when you miss (usually by raising for a free card or peeling off to hit a gutter getting likely over 10:1)

and this is just one hand.

now lets move on to pairs, if a pot is going to be 8 handed 22 should be played regardless of the # of bets going in preflop. 22 is a monster on a Jh6h2x board, it will earn TONS AND TONS of bets and lose only those put in when it does. thus pairs should be played a lot CHEAPLY.

using the above as a justification to play 22 calling an EP raiser and an MP caller cold is bad poker b/c you are not sure the setting will be correct. you may have to now take 22 4 handed for 4 bets. UGH. that suckies the big schlongy.

instead, you SHOULD play it in ANY position if the game is very loose (at least 5-6 players every flop for RARELY more than 2 bets). you should play it in later positions after 3 or more limpers. AND, you should RAISE 22 after EVERYBODY limps in a 8-10 handed game for value ON THE BUTTON. please to note that my caps words are often actions and conditions. the capsed action is WRONG when the capped condition is not met.

SO thats it.

all you TAGs getting frustrated and feeling like our FNTAG...relax, this game is fun and you get to play many more hands at lower limits. it only gets harder when you have to have my stats in 30/60 and up /images/graemlins/frown.gif (for the record my current 30/60 stats are 18/12/2.81. god is that boring /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

Again, please dont use this post as an excuse to play loosely and badly. i am assuming the user can PLAY postlfop and play well relative to the competition.

other advice: GET POKERTRACKER (obviously this is for the newbies)

if i think of anything else i'll add it w/ ADDITION in the subject heading. otherwise, happy pokering and in the words of a great older poster (nevalandry )

"may the flop be with you."

Barron

[Mackerel]

Nice post. I would add Axs as a hand that you love to play for one or two bets PF against a bunch of loose callers.

[DcifrThs]

As stated by poster: add Axs to the list of great suited hands to play.

ALSO, another addition is that on the button, there are so few hands that i woudln't play that id toss anywhere else. Q7s, Q6s etc. any suited ace, any suited 3 gapper above 74s, suited connectors down to 54s, and hands as bad as J6s after a bunch of limpers. NOTE: these hands go DOWN IN VALUE with everybody playing K5s Q2s from any position.

Barron

Dcifr-

You bring up something I struggle with a lot in the low limit games - people who call me down with stuff like two pair. I understand they're running scared and see my raises and just think I might have an incredible hand so they don't raise me, but do you have any strategies for coping with the loss of a pot when you're never raised? I'm talking about the flop that comes out J53 rainbow when you raised preflop with AJ s and the guy on the other side of the table calls down his 2p 53 and turns it over.

On a similar vein: Is there any conceivable explanation for someone not raising when he has the absolute nuts? This guy at a $4/$8 game in Oklahoma last night kept on giving me these beats where he had the nuts but wouldn't let me know. Example: I hold K4spades late position, 4 limpers I'm in. Flop comes up QJ6 two spades, he bets, one call, I call and there's a call behind me. Turn is a K, he bets, I raise, he calls. River is the T spades, he bets, I raise of course and he calls, turning over AJ spades for the nut flush + broadway (like it mattered.) The hand put me on tilt for at least half an hour. I saw him do it again later when he held a broadway on the turn and just called down the river when there was no pair or flush on the board. Wtf?

In your example with 22, your raise is primarily to build the pot so people don't get away from hopeless draws, correct? I assume with eight players, your raise is not for value, because even though you hit your set 1/8 of the time, there's a higher set or straight/flush out there at least 10 percent of the time? Also, is there any worry that by raising pf with the low pp you represent a stronger hand, so when your set comes you actually fail to get as many bets because you represented strength early on?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Dcifr-

You bring up something I struggle with a lot in the low limit games - people who call me down with stuff like two pair. I understand they're running scared and see my raises and just think I might have an incredible hand so they don't raise me, but do you have any strategies for coping with the loss of a pot when you're never raised? I'm talking about the flop that comes out J53 rainbow when you raised preflop with AJ s and the guy on the other side of the table calls down his 2p 53 and turns it over.

On a similar vein: Is there any conceivable explanation for someone not raising when he has the absolute nuts? This guy at a $4/$8 game in Oklahoma last night kept on giving me these beats where he had the nuts but wouldn't let me know. Example: I hold K4spades late position, 4 limpers I'm in. Flop comes up QJ6 two spades, he bets, one call, I call and there's a call behind me. Turn is a K, he bets, I raise, he calls. River is the T spades, he bets, I raise of course and he calls, turning over AJ spades for the nut flush + broadway (like it mattered.) The hand put me on tilt for at least half an hour. I saw him do it again later when he held a broadway on the turn and just called down the river when there was no pair or flush on the board. Wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

he doesn't understand poker.

the 22 raise IS for value AND to hopefully get to see a 4 card flop if it comes AK5

Barron

Yeah it's kind of annoying when this happens, but when you think about it their saving you $$$ by underplaying their hands. You can't fold either hand you describe even if they do raise, so this just adds to your BB/100.

[shant]

Both situations you wrote about are things you should be happy that your opponent does.

Shant, I know I SHOULD be happy, and I know he's losing money he could win off me. My question wasn't "This is good by him, right?" it was WHY would someone do this, and does anyone have strategies to deal with the trauma when you expect to take in an extra $150 that hand? (Cigarette?)

I guess it's like someone breaking into your car and failing to steal your pimped up stereo. It's like the thief is insulting your sense of style.

Oh. So you build the pot big enough not only to help other people's helpless draws, but to allow you to take a free/low cost turn card for the straight draw or set when you miss the flop? That makes sense.

[PTjvs]

Point/Counterpoint

All this is sound theory, but there is a pretty big problem with the specific examples mentioned:

I regularly 4 table in what I assume to be among the loosest games around (Party 2/4).Even these games are almost never loose enough to play the hands you are describing.

I used to play all Axs & all pocket pairs regardless of position before I got PT. After I invested in PT, I was somewhat appalled by what I found. Despie winning some monster pots with these hands when they hit hard (which you certainly will do), they were STILL losing hands for me. The games just simply arent loose enough to justify playing these hands irregardless of position etc. In my experience, a "typical" hand at Party 2/4 will typically be 4-5 players for 1 bet to the flop, or 3-4 for a raise to the flop. Hands where 8 or 9 people see the flop are RARE.

So yes, you do play some of these hands MORE often. Play 66+ from any position. Play 22+ from MP on. I dont recommend suited Ax below A9 at all, except in steal situations, which are rare at the game I play. Try to sneak in with 98s, 87s, 67s in MP after a limper or two. But don't go overboard; you aren't giving up anything if you limp less than 5% of the time with 75s, because it's nearly that rare when it's profitable to do so.

jvs

[shant]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but the OP already answered the question that the guy doesn't understand poker. Just shake your head and whisper "unbelievable" to yourself like jason_t and you'll be fine.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

Interesting point, I have nothing to add. Oh, and what does your name mean? It has always confused me.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting point, I have nothing to add. Oh, and what does your name mean? It has always confused me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope im not taking some sarcastic troll bait here but its funny that even after capitalizing the D and the T people still dont FIGURE IT OUT.

Barron

[imported_CaseClosed326]

No sarcastic troll. Just kinda stupid.

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
No sarcastic troll. Just kinda stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't Decipher what his name is, I can't help you.

jvs

[lighterjobs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting point, I have nothing to add. Oh, and what does your name mean? It has always confused me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope im not taking some sarcastic troll bait here but its funny that even after capitalizing the D and the T people still dont FIGURE IT OUT.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

what the hell does desiffer mean?

[deetle]

Why would you tilt from your flush hand? The donk saved you at least 2bb because you cant let the hand go. These are the players you want at the table

[habsfanca11]

Thanks for the post! You paraphrased nicely my weekend - on tilt, after suckout upon suckout and villian rarely betting them, showing down loser upon loser. Appreciate the perspective. So what was my response? - move up to 3/6 and try to win some of it back. I'll try and post a hand later which I think shows what you're talking about. Hope this thread continues.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Shant, I know I SHOULD be happy, and I know he's losing money he could win off me. My question wasn't "This is good by him, right?" it was WHY would someone do this, and does anyone have strategies to deal with the trauma when you expect to take in an extra $150 that hand? (Cigarette?)

I guess it's like someone breaking into your car and failing to steal your pimped up stereo. It's like the thief is insulting your sense of style.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of these players think that the object of poker is to win the pot. They are not thinking about getting value for their hands. They just want to show down a winner.

Regarding the the trauma, you just need to judge yourself based on how well you played the hand rather than the results. If you bet your top pair on the river and get called by a guy who caught runner-runner two pair with 32o, you should feel good that you played the hand correctly. This is easier said than done.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Point/Counterpoint

All this is sound theory, but there is a pretty big problem with the specific examples mentioned:

I regularly 4 table in what I assume to be among the loosest games around (Party 2/4).Even these games are almost never loose enough to play the hands you are describing.

I used to play all Axs & all pocket pairs regardless of position before I got PT. After I invested in PT, I was somewhat appalled by what I found. Despie winning some monster pots with these hands when they hit hard (which you certainly will do), they were STILL losing hands for me. The games just simply arent loose enough to justify playing these hands irregardless of position etc. In my experience, a "typical" hand at Party 2/4 will typically be 4-5 players for 1 bet to the flop, or 3-4 for a raise to the flop. Hands where 8 or 9 people see the flop are RARE.

So yes, you do play some of these hands MORE often. Play 66+ from any position. Play 22+ from MP on. I dont recommend suited Ax below A9 at all, except in steal situations, which are rare at the game I play. Try to sneak in with 98s, 87s, 67s in MP after a limper or two. But don't go overboard; you aren't giving up anything if you limp less than 5% of the time with 75s, because it's nearly that rare when it's profitable to do so.

jvs

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time distinguishing 66 and 55 UTG. You're not thinking clearly about why and when these hands are profitable.

[deetle]

What were your PT stats that that made you stop playing A/2s-A/8s from MP on. You said typically it was 4-5 for 1 bet. This itself should make it profitable. The only thing I can come up with is you were going to far when a Ace flopped and you were dominated.

[MaxPower]

Maybe you should stop looking at pokertracker?

[PTjvs]

There isnt much different between 66 & 55 UTG, or possibly even 22-88, but there is some. At this level, lots of dorks run K5s, Q3s etc, and obviously Im in much better shape unimproved vs. those hands w/66 as opposed to 44. Yes, that's a fine line to draw.

Id have to be home to check out PT for exact numbers for how often I actually win this sort of hand, but small/mid pocket pairs do occasionally win unimproved even limped. You certainly have to be careful with your spots though to avoid spewing chips.

jvs

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
What were your PT stats that that made you stop playing A/2s-A/8s from MP on. You said typically it was 4-5 for 1 bet. This itself should make it profitable. The only thing I can come up with is you were going to far when a Ace flopped and you were dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Over my first 30k hands or so w/PT, I was in the red with every Axs below AT, with the exception of A5 (statistical abnormality Id think). If you are playing A4s in MP behind 1-2 limpers, you are looking at a 4-5way unraised flop. The ONLY flops you are happy with are flushes, 4flushes, wheels, two pairs & trips. You simply cannot continue on any other flops. I have not found these hands to be profitable enough when they hit to offset the times where they do not.

The only times I play Axs X<9 that I can think of off the top of my head are on extremely loose tables where Im going 6-7 to the flop, or for a raise in LP/isolation reraise vs. absolute 95/65 maniac.

That said, I am bad at poker. I do smash 2/4 pretty badly, but that doesn't really mean much. So I certainly could be wrong.

jvs

[baronzeus]

just fwiw, i played about 10K hands at 2/4 full with a vpip of 25-26 a couple months ago as an experiment. limping 76s UTG is fun.

i might have not done it properly though. my winrate was slightly better than my tighter (19/11) mode but i'll chalk it up to variance.

Yes in the right games I think you if don't loosen up you are leaving money on the table. In a good 1/2 or 2/4 game I want my VPIP to get up in the 25-30 range. Must be a lot of loose passive players though.

[B Dids]

This is a good thread, but like, shouldn't people just go read SSHE instead of this thread?

I would hope that every person posting in this forum has read that book.

I say this as somebody who Joe Tall wanted to ban until I'd re-read HEPFAP (or TOP, can't remember, but Joe was right).

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thread, but like, shouldn't people just go read SSHE instead of this thread?


[/ QUOTE ]


What is SSHE?

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thread, but like, shouldn't people just go read SSHE instead of this thread?


[/ QUOTE ]


What is SSHE?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is "read?"

[soweak.]

This post has some great nuggets of info in it. I suggest anyone who has a tough time beating LOOSE low limit online games to save this thread in thier favorites and refer to it when the going gets tough.

[smokingrobot]

Since AA doesnt hold well on a K82 flop with 6 players, do you suggest c/r'ing in early position, raising from late position, and then folding on the turn to donk bets if you dont turn a set?

or is just calling down optimal here?

[Cumulonimbus]

Hah I just read your post and this hand came up. It made me happy. BTW, I was in hurry, but do we like a bet or a check on the flop?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $2. UTG posts a blind of $2. MP1 posts a blind of $3.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, Button calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (14.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

[flair1239]

And so it begins.

Just as Nate's excellent "You are all too tight" post did a few months ago, this post will result in many developing players to enter many marginal situations with which they are not prepared to cope with and probably are not +EV anyways.

Expect to see a rash of inappropriate isolation raises, marginal hands played OOP without regard for the traffic behind them...etc.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I was in hurry, but do we like a bet or a check on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like a check/raise, or check/coldcall if someone else beats you to it. It kinda sucks here if Button decides to protect his AQ, and all those limpers &amp; posters decide to cooperate.

[Cumulonimbus]

Yeah thats what I kinda figured afterwards. THanks.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
And so it begins.

Just as Nate's excellent "You are all too tight" post did a few months ago, this post will result in many developing players to enter many marginal situations with which they are not prepared to cope with and probably are not +EV anyways.

Expect to see a rash of inappropriate isolation raises, marginal hands played OOP without regard for the traffic behind them...etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about someone writes an eloquent post about the benefits of position.

[psyduck]

<font color="blue"> I love this thread and have started implementing it in some extremely loose/passive live games.

Seriously, SSHE should just be taken as a guide. Once you truly understand the principles, you will vary your play naturally under different table conditions. </font>

[habsfanca11]

Don't want to taske away from this thread ... so I posted a hand for discussion in a seperate thread and borrowed part of this title.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thread, but like, shouldn't people just go read SSHE instead of this thread?


[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i did say :

[ QUOTE ]
a few disclaimers:

1) this is mostly covered in M&amp;M&amp;S (hmmm, Miller and Malmuth=M&amp;M, thats sweet) book(s)

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
And so it begins.

Just as Nate's excellent "You are all too tight" post did a few months ago, this post will result in many developing players to enter many marginal situations with which they are not prepared to cope with and probably are not +EV anyways.

Expect to see a rash of inappropriate isolation raises, marginal hands played OOP without regard for the traffic behind them...etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

is covered by:

[ QUOTE ]
4) the looser play advocated in this post is POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS to somebody NOT ABLE TO PLAY POSTFLOP well

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thread, but like, shouldn't people just go read SSHE instead of this thread?


[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i did say :

[ QUOTE ]
a few disclaimers:

1) this is mostly covered in M&amp;M&amp;S (hmmm, Miller and Malmuth=M&amp;M, thats sweet) book(s)

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this advice is that almost no one falls into the category where they:

1. Don't know it /Didn't think about
2. Understand it and are capable of applying it well before they should move up to a place where it doesn't apply anymore.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thread, but like, shouldn't people just go read SSHE instead of this thread?


[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i did say :

[ QUOTE ]
a few disclaimers:

1) this is mostly covered in M&amp;M&amp;S (hmmm, Miller and Malmuth=M&amp;M, thats sweet) book(s)

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this advice is that almost no one falls into the category where they:

1. Don't know it /Didn't think about
2. Understand it and are capable of applying it well before they should move up to a place where it doesn't apply anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

good points.

i just saw a few posts where i was thinking about how some folks are too tight. i thus posted the above.

if i knew at the beginning of my career what i know now i woulda moved up a lot faster. and im not just saying that hypothetically...after clearing my original roll for school etc. i took $20 in nov 2005 and built that up to my roll that i now can safely play limits up to 80/160 every day if i so choose. i used the concepts i understand now to build it and w/o those thoughts i posted it would have taken me forever longer.

im just trying to help those out.

Barron

[paperboyNC]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this advice is that almost no one falls into the category where they:

1. Don't know it /Didn't think about
2. Understand it and are capable of applying it well before they should move up to a place where it doesn't apply anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played close to 200,000 hands of online poker and built a bankroll of 10k, but I still play $3/$6.

I think a lot of very good and experienced players on this table still play 2/4, 3/6 and 5/10 and look for loose passive tables. Plus, if anyone plays at a casino, they are probably playing a loose/passive table.

PaperboyNC

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this advice is that almost no one falls into the category where they:

1. Don't know it /Didn't think about
2. Understand it and are capable of applying it well before they should move up to a place where it doesn't apply anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played close to 200,000 hands of online poker and built a bankroll of 10k, but I still play $3/$6.

I think a lot of very good and experienced players on this table still play 2/4, 3/6 and 5/10 and look for loose passive tables. Plus, if anyone plays at a casino, they are probably playing a loose/passive table.

PaperboyNC

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess the next post i write will have to be about moving up and taking shots b/c i haven't even played 200k hands since nov 2005 and wow...i dunno man. take some shots w/ something youc an afford to lose...b/c you can at this point. unless of course youd rather be conservative...in which case, good decision.

Barron

[ QUOTE ]

i took $20 in nov 2005 and built that up to my roll that i now can safely play limits up to 80/160 every day if i so choose.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have money from the future? AWESOME!!!

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thread, but like, shouldn't people just go read SSHE instead of this thread?


[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i did say :

[ QUOTE ]
a few disclaimers:

1) this is mostly covered in M&amp;M&amp;S (hmmm, Miller and Malmuth=M&amp;M, thats sweet) book(s)

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this advice is that almost no one falls into the category where they:

1. Don't know it /Didn't think about
2. Understand it and are capable of applying it well before they should move up to a place where it doesn't apply anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

good points.

i just saw a few posts where i was thinking about how some folks are too tight. i thus posted the above.

if i knew at the beginning of my career what i know now i woulda moved up a lot faster. and im not just saying that hypothetically...after clearing my original roll for school etc. i took $20 in nov 2005 and built that up to my roll that i now can safely play limits up to 80/160 every day if i so choose. i used the concepts i understand now to build it and w/o those thoughts i posted it would have taken me forever longer.

im just trying to help those out.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. it has bill clinton's face on it.

nov. 2004 clearly.

Barron

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this advice is that almost no one falls into the category where they:

1. Don't know it /Didn't think about
2. Understand it and are capable of applying it well before they should move up to a place where it doesn't apply anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played close to 200,000 hands of online poker and built a bankroll of 10k, but I still play $3/$6.

I think a lot of very good and experienced players on this table still play 2/4, 3/6 and 5/10 and look for loose passive tables. Plus, if anyone plays at a casino, they are probably playing a loose/passive table.

PaperboyNC

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you're ignoring the fact that (I'm assuming) you already knew all this information. There are VERY few people who can take advantage of this who don't already know it, most will be harmed.

The only real candidates are people who for some reason don't wish to move up, or can't move up. The only other possible exception is someone who is good at another form of poker playing lower while learning a new form.

I think most of these hands that are good in these games are already recommended in SSHE. The ones that aren't mentioned are only minutely +EV anyway, if you make postflop mistakes that swings pretty fast too. I think the definition of a mediocre player is they still make mistakes fairly often in unusual circumstances, which is pretty much exactly where you will always be with these hands.

Finally find me a player who's &gt; &gt; biggest &lt; &lt; fault is playing too tight and I'll show you a player who is pretty good.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I think you are wrong if you think you would of moved up a lot faster.

[Nytecaster]

&lt;&lt;Over my first 30k hands or so w/PT, I was in the red with every Axs below AT, with the exception of A5 (statistical abnormality Id think). If you are playing A4s in MP behind 1-2 limpers, you are looking at a 4-5way unraised flop. The ONLY flops you are happy with are flushes, 4flushes, wheels, two pairs &amp; trips. You simply cannot continue on any other flops. I have not found these hands to be profitable enough when they hit to offset the times where they do not.&gt;&gt;

You are forgetting the pair with a flush card on the board which you can see the turn for one maybe two bets in the right position. This is an extremely important addition to your criteria.

[paperboyNC]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but you're ignoring the fact that (I'm assuming) you already knew all this information. There are VERY few people who can take advantage of this who don't already know it, most will be harmed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that I do. But sometimes I forget the conditions that are necessary to loosen up pre-flop. If anything, I play too loose rather than too tight, particularly when I play at casinos. I interpreted this post to tell me to stop playing 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif on my 6max tables with 3 players per flop!

[ QUOTE ]
Finally find me a player who's &gt; &gt; biggest &lt; &lt; fault is playing too tight and I'll show you a player who is pretty good

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I assume you mean pre-flop. Playing too tight post-flop is called weak-tight and makes you a poor player.

[QTip]

I'm sure the OP is aware of this; however, just to be sure everyone's clear...

The number and type of hands you enter with in a game is copmletely dependent on the opponents you're against, NOT the limit you're playing.

For example, to ask someone to play with a 25-30 vpip in any of the 8 2/4 games that I'm playing as I'm typing this, is asking them to be a break even player at best.

[smokingrobot]

guess i should change this, im making this up btw.
full ring .5/1 10 max. All players are fairly loose passive. (Hero being the good ol' TAG, and perhaps not the best one at that). His image, due to his previous hands is tight. Lots of folds, raising with good cards, showing down good cards, a winning player, but not by much.

Nobody fears him, people are sucking out on him. He's probably even whined in the chat box (and no im not describing this from eperience).

Hero raises AA in EP, MP1, MP2, CO, BUTTON and SB cold call.

Flop (12SB): K82 rainbow.

SB checks, Hero...?

check? c/r? bet out?

(back to the hand)

SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 check, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button bets,
SB calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn (18BB): 7o

SB checks Hero...