Four handed abomination

[kevkev60614]

ABOMINATION #1: Villian has been aggressive recently, and I haven't seen too many of his hands 3 handed. He takes his time but I've seen him do some stupid things.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1785)
Hero (t2925)
BB (t3760)
UTG (t5030)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t225, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t750) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t450</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1200


ABOMINATION #2 JUSTIFICATION: I'd gotten the big stack by raising to 4BB and watching them fold. Now I'm at a point where if I raise to 4BB and they push, I have to call. So I'll save them the trouble and push myself. Does this make sense?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t7115)
SB (t1475)
BB (t1590)
UTG (t3320)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3000</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t1365 (All-In).

Flop: (t4440) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t4440) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t4440) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t4440

I'm probably viewed as annoyingly aggressive throughout. I seriously need some help here. I hate to ruin the ending, but even with that huge stack in HAND #2, I finished OTM. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks in advance.

[KramerTM]

Hand 1:
Check-raise all in. I don't see why you're even calling the PF raise if you won't even commit your chips on that flop.

Hand 2: Try min-raising to steal blinds and folding to pushes as a way to mix it up. I find this can be effective. All told, I think the push was fine.

[ldavidjm]

I think the first hand is about as bad as it gets, how can you put him on an overpair with nothing more than a raise PF and a continuation bet. Especially when you said he was aggressive. A raise is in order on the flop at the very least.

Hand two I don't think is that bad, you're the big stack, blinds are decently high, and QJs is a decent hand. I'd be shoving there too.

[Roland32]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the first hand is about as bad as it gets, how can you put him on an overpair with nothing more than a raise PF and a continuation bet. Especially when you said he was aggressive. A raise is in order on the flop at the very least.

Hand two I don't think is that bad, you're the big stack, blinds are decently high, and QJs is a decent hand. I'd be shoving there too.

[/ QUOTE ]

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the first hand is about as bad as it gets, how can you put him on an overpair with nothing more than a raise PF and a continuation bet. Especially when you said he was aggressive. A raise is in order on the flop at the very least.

Hand two I don't think is that bad, you're the big stack, blinds are decently high, and QJs is a decent hand. I'd be shoving there too.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[lorinda]

Personally I don't mind the first hand. You're getting 12-1 or something on your money to flop a set and stuck to the plan (There was a plan right?) of getting away cheaply if you missed.

It's limit dependent, but certainly in the lower limits I think this play is fine.

Lori

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I don't mind the first hand. You're getting 12-1 or something on your money to flop a set and stuck to the plan (There was a plan right?) of getting away cheaply if you missed.

It's limit dependent, but certainly in the lower limits I think this play is fine.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

What range do you put UTG on?

[lorinda]

[ QUOTE ]
What range do you put UTG on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost anything, but I dont fancy gambling for such a small pot.

Lori

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What range do you put UTG on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost anything, but I dont fancy gambling for such a small pot.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]
T1200 is almost half your stack.

CR All-in, pick this pot up, IMHO.

[sng-sam]

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting 12-1 or something on your money to flop a set

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? are including some kind of implied odds here? What am I missing?


SAM

[tigerite]

Check/raise all-in on 1, and 2 is fine. You want to maximise FE against them, and their calling range SHOULD be tight.

[lorinda]

ICM has the difference in $EV changing from 22.52 if we fold to 27.75 if we CR and win.
Given that the blinds are still pretty small here, and that they go up slowly, I think we get a large chunk of that back just by being better than our opponents over the next few rounds.

Lori

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
ICM has the difference in $EV changing from 22.52 if we fold to 27.75 if we CR and win.
Given that the blinds are still pretty small here, and that they go up slowly, I think we get a large chunk of that back just by being better than our opponents over the next few rounds.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you fold here you can't realistically say you are much better than your opponents.

A lot of the time your caution is warranted, Lorinda, but I can't agree with you here. You are SO far ahead of his range that you really need to get the chips in.

[lorinda]

If we fold we'll have 13BB. In a $11 at Stars I'd imagine that even if we folded the next 12 hands we'll be heads up with 9-10BB.

That should be enough to make us a little under even money to beat a standard HU opponent.

I guess we're going to have to agree to differ. FWIW in the same situation in a Party $55 I'd CR (or push preflop) but for me I'm willing to wait here if this is low limit (Which was an assumption I stated before) because they'll simply call me when I have them beat later on.

Edit: A little under even money is a bit rough, probably more like 35%

Lori

[kevkev60614]

FWIW, this was a $5.50, not an $11.

[lorinda]

One advantage of the CR I've not mentioned is that it will stop him bullying you if it works and get you some implied chips.

I post this just for the sake of balance.

Lori

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I don't mind the first hand. You're getting 12-1 or something on your money to flop a set and stuck to the plan (There was a plan right?) of getting away cheaply if you missed.

It's limit dependent, but certainly in the lower limits I think this play is fine.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Your caution is fine Lorinda... I REALLY disagree with your line, but whatever.

My problem with your post is your reasoning in favor of OP's line. He is not really getting 12-1 here. Aggressive PF players like UTG here are not going to pay off a set even half the time I imagine. Playing this for set only is wrong. This flop is great for 88 and I'd at least take a stab at a raise.

This brings up another possible thread about how players misconstrue their implied odds so often in favor of their hand to justify loose PF calling. (Dont confuse my post as advocating a fold here, I happen to think 88 is ahead of UTG's range)

[lorinda]

Ok, point taken on the 12-1 , although we're told that the raiser does crazy things, and I imagine we'll double through more than half the time.

You are correct however that I should be more careful when throwing numbers like that around, please pull me on it if I do it again too.

Please read my original post to mean "We have a chance to double through cheaply" as that would be more fair and far more accurate.

Lori

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, point taken on the 12-1 , although we're told that the raiser does crazy things, and I imagine we'll double through more than half the time.

You are correct however that I should be more careful when throwing numbers like that around, please pull me on it if I do it again too.

Please read my original post to mean "We have a chance to double through cheaply" as that would be more fair and far more accurate.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I think one needs to factor in 88 or xx playing on its own somewhat to make this a consistently profitable play. Factoring in that sets are NOT going to be paid off 100% of the time can be made up for the fact that 88 will win medium to large pots with out improvement against Laggy players.

That said, I'll let you slide this time. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[lorinda]

I think the OP should ignore everything I've posted in this thread given the standard of the posters who say my line is very wrong.

I'd have gotten away with it too if it weren't for them pesky kids /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Lori

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the OP should ignore everything I've posted in this thread given the standard of the posters who say my line is very wrong.

I'd have gotten away with it too if it weren't for them pesky kids /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

blah...There wasnt that much disagreement really. calling pf is cheap and good, the rest of us simply advocate playing the hand for its own value. I think there's something to be said for your line too. w/o a read on UTG, I would be scared to play this hand honestly with even this flop.