Your forum makes me sick

[STLantny]

Im a frequenter of OTT, and dropped in a little after the hurricane hit, hoping for good POV's of the situation. Most everyone in here, sans 2-3 of you, act like little children, except with more sarcasm. You fail to even consider the other sides argument, and just spout what your respective party leaders tell you too. Its sick. Not that you are the only people to do so, the whole country seems this way, I just assumed that Twoplustwo'ers might be above all of it. Where's any sembelance of objectivity?

[jokerthief]

Nice post.

[tek]

Freedom of opinion and freedom of speech--check it out /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom of opinion and freedom of speech--check it out /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with freedom of opinion or speech. You can do whatever you want. But from a logical standpoint, it is counterproductive to getting your opinion across. If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it.........

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
You fail to even consider the other sides argument, and just spout what your respective party leaders tell you too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is quite often true in regards to many topics discussed, yes it is unfortunate

[ QUOTE ]

I just assumed that Twoplustwo'ers might be above all of it. Where's any sembelance of objectivity?

[/ QUOTE ]

You read OOT, so honestly how can you be surprised. For the most part I agreed with your overall point, but pretty much like every other forum there are some actual decent points made by a few select individuals but quite often they are buried between many other useless posts.

[Exsubmariner]

This is a great post you made. Every word is true. I was considering making a snide remark like welcome, come join us, but I think you deserve a little more effort so I am going to give it a shot.

The very thing, I think that makes this forum work, is the freedom to be as non objective as you want. I do it for entertainment value. Sometimes though, I find that being non objective about things is the fastest path to defining what reality really is. Everyone would like to believe that they are enlightened, that they have some corner on how the world really is or how it really works. For some, the ideal world would be one in which their enlightened views would be all they needed for success, great riches, and the love of all. But that isn't the real world. In the real world, people are all biased. There is no "objectivity." Everyone is the product of their education, their experiences, or the acceptance of whatever group of people they count themselves a part of. Very few, and I mean very few people, ever really escape that net of influences. I'm not even sure about the absolute validity of that statement. Perhaps I should revise it to say very few people even try.

Some people make a practice out of proving others are "wrong" and that reinforces the idea that they themselves are "right." Hog wash. It's word games. Come and play.

[Broken Glass Can]

Sometimes we make serious posts, and sometimes we post nonsense.


Just for you, I started a thread that should generate serious discussion about the very real interactions between the key players in the hurricane crisis. HERE (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3330522)

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Where's any sembelance of objectivity?



[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you expect it? This is a place that is, most of the time, dedicated to people giving ther political opinions. Opinions are, definitionally, not objective.

[tek]

[ QUOTE ]
You fail to even consider the other sides argument, and just spout what your respective party leaders tell you too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you post would be more appropriate in the politics forum, but would still be equally wrong.

I don't have a party line. I will attack each part and idology equally.

My question to you is how can someone not consider the other side of an argument? That would be like arguing in a vaccuum.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you post would be more appropriate in the politics forum...

[/ QUOTE ]

its in the politics forum.

[ QUOTE ]

My question to you is how can someone not consider the other side of an argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that many people actually truly consider different views about various issues? I assume that most people don't

[webmonarch]

[ QUOTE ]
Im a frequenter of OTT, and dropped in a little after the hurricane hit, hoping for good POV's of the situation. Most everyone in here, sans 2-3 of you, act like little children, except with more sarcasm. You fail to even consider the other sides argument, and just spout what your respective party leaders tell you too. Its sick. Not that you are the only people to do so, the whole country seems this way, I just assumed that Twoplustwo'ers might be above all of it. Where's any sembelance of objectivity?

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[tek]

woops, I forgot where I was /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where's any sembelance of objectivity?



[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you expect it? This is a place that is, most of the time, dedicated to people giving ther political opinions. Opinions are, definitionally, not objective.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, here is where I am comming from, more than anything, playing poker, has taught me to think about everything in mathematical terms, even religion, personalities etc. Mathematics is usually very clear cut, with little gray area (although some). Hence why I made an assumption that most people who read twoplustwo, are more apt to think in the same way as myself. Dunno. Im a fan of dragnet politics. I just coined that phrase......ie, just hte facts ma'am.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, here is where I am comming from, more than anything, playing poker, has taught me to think about everything in mathematical terms, even religion, personalities etc

[/ QUOTE ]

I would suggest that this is a pretty narrow world view and that it would make you a more complete person to step beyond that type of thinking. It has its place, but that place is not as broad as your statement suggests.

[Felix_Nietsche]

......good Lord split ya.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
In the real world, people are all biased. There is no "objectivity." Everyone is the product of their education, their experiences, or the acceptance of whatever group of people they count themselves a part of.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can agree on some things.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think that many people actually truly consider different views about various issues? I assume that most people don't

[/ QUOTE ]

There are quite a few posters that make an arguement, then provide links and factual backup. Cyrus, Myrtle, Chris Alger, to name a few....

I do try to do this for many of my arguments, but should concentrate on it more.

A major problem is that indisputable facts are taken as opinions, and then refuted by a one line quote from Hannity or Rush.

I'm sure that happens on the other side of the aisle as well, I just don't notice it as much given my views.

[FishHooks]

I guess that is what politics do. I'm conservative and i say things that dissapoint me about the republican party. Where most of this hostile postings comes into play when someone is wrong and they dont want to admit it, liberals and conservatives, then they go on the offensive and just attack the other poster. I guess its human nature....

Another part is that this is an online forum so people have all the time in the world to make up a responce, research things online (as we all know most online sources suck).

Just some of my 2cents

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
My question to you is how can someone not consider the other side of an argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a political movement declares their doctrines to be Divinely Revealed Truth, then considering counterarguments becomes a political form of heresy. Cults work this way every day, and so can political parties and political movements if they metasticize. At the moment, the right wing has absolutely gone off the deep end in this direction, and you see it in virtually every post by party apologists here. "The Leader can do no wrong". "The Party can do no wrong". "There is only one True Party". "The Party represents the Will of God". "Opposition to the Party is the work of the Devil". Etc, etc, etc. Read the forum with that in mind and it makes a lot more sense.


q/q

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
My question to you is how can someone not consider the other side of an argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a political movement declares their doctrines to be Divinely Revealed Truth, then considering counterarguments becomes a political form of heresy. Cults work this way every day, and so can political parties and political movements if they metasticize. At the moment, the right wing has absolutely gone off the deep end in this direction, and you see it in virtually every post by party apologists here. "The Leader can do no wrong". "The Party can do no wrong". "There is only one True Party". "The Party represents the Will of God". "Opposition to the Party is the work of the Devil". Etc, etc, etc. Read the forum with that in mind and it makes a lot more sense.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you mention nothing about the liberals. How ironic.

I don't read this forum enough to know what your political leanings are but I thought you had a cool idea about the closed army bases (that was you right?) and I think I even said so.

I actually learn a lot from listening to both sides. It's not as futile as you might think. For what it's worth I hope you stay.

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
Yet you mention nothing about the liberals. How ironic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for illustrating my point for me. I'm clearly an Agent of the Devil, and someone who Should Not Be Listened To.


q/q

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Yet you mention nothing about the liberals. How ironic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for illustrating my point for me. I'm clearly an Agent of the Devil, and someone who Should Not Be Listened To.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not liberal or conservative I dont think. I have leanings of both. But you chastise the republicans for blindly following someone, yet you seem to do the same thing, using snide remarks against anyone who seems to disagree with you (which I dont necassarily). Its just that both sides posture and look down on the other, almost leading me to believe that you people are the very thing you hate the most. And if it is one thing I hate its hypocrites.


BTW, my comment about being ironic, had nothing to do with your political thoughts and/or affiliations, but rather how much/little you truly analyze things, using an open mind. It seems that most of the poster here, are a carbon copy of Sean Hannity/Al Franken, two of the the things that are most wrong with modern-day politics. And your comments lead me to belive you are "one of them".

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Yet you mention nothing about the liberals. How ironic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for illustrating my point for me. I'm clearly an Agent of the Devil, and someone who Should Not Be Listened To.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not liberal or conservative I dont think. I have leanings of both. But you chastise the republicans for blindly following someone, yet you seem to do the same thing, using snide remarks against anyone who seems to disagree with you (which I dont necassarily). Its just that both sides posture and look down on the other, almost leading me to believe that you people are the very thing you hate the most. And if it is one thing I hate its hypocrites.

[/ QUOTE ]

"You People"??!!

....and you hate hypocrites?

[STLantny]

I dont understand??? How does the you people comment make me a hypocrite?

[jokerthief]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand??? How does the you people comment make me a hypocrite?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing to understand. You are calling out the partisan hacks and they are grasping at straws because you got their number pegged so acutely. This is a great thread and those who attack you are only proving your point. This forum has degenerated to point where it's completely worthless.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand??? How does the you people comment make me a hypocrite?

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough....let me explain (without malice or bad intention) how I interpret what you're saying, and you tell me what I missed.

[ QUOTE ]
Im not liberal or conservative I dont think. I have leanings of both. But you chastise the republicans for blindly following someone, yet you seem to do the same thing, using snide remarks against anyone who seems to disagree with you (which I dont necassarily). Its just that both sides posture and look down on the other, almost leading me to believe that you people are the very thing you hate the most. And if it is one thing I hate its hypocrites.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took the 'you people' appelation in the above quote to be doing exactly what you say that you hate in the same quote, i.e. posturing and looking down on the other.

If I've misunderstood, my apology.

Would you explain your view further?


<font color="orange"> </font>

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand??? How does the you people comment make me a hypocrite?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing to understand. You are calling out the partisan hacks and they are grasping at straws because you got their number pegged so acutely. This is a great thread and those who attack you are only proving your point. This forum has degenerated to point where it's completely worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]


Honestly enough, I really dont understand where his comment is comming from whatsoever. But, my main fear that will happen to this country, is the possible fact that 10-15 years from now, there will be know news outlets that report anything that isnt a Michael Moore movie, or a Rush Limbaugh hour.

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
But you chastise the republicans for blindly following someone, yet you seem to do the same thing ...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is doubletalk.

Who is it that you believe I "blindly follow"? Give me a name, and show me how you determined that this specific person was heralded by me as an Inerrant Leader.

I can easily do this for virtually every right wing poster here, and so can even a casual reader. If you believe you can do the same for me, please do so.

Until then, your assertion of moral equivalence is unsupported.


q/q

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand??? How does the you people comment make me a hypocrite?

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough....let me explain (without malice or bad intention) how I interpret what you're saying, and you tell me what I missed.

[ QUOTE ]
Im not liberal or conservative I dont think. I have leanings of both. But you chastise the republicans for blindly following someone, yet you seem to do the same thing, using snide remarks against anyone who seems to disagree with you (which I dont necassarily). Its just that both sides posture and look down on the other, almost leading me to believe that you people are the very thing you hate the most. And if it is one thing I hate its hypocrites.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took the 'you people' appelation in the above quote to be doing exactly what you say that you hate in the same quote, i.e. posturing and looking down on the other.

If I've misunderstood, my apology.

Would you explain your view further?


<font color="orange"> </font>

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont think I really look down on anyone, or at least enough that I dont take the time to at least, listen to what they are saying. IE. there ARE groups that I will dismiss moreso than others (Nazi's, hate groups), but I at least TRY to process what they are saying. Most people that I see on TV/Forums only process things enough, to make fun of/discredit them.

The term "you people" is just quicker than typing, people who are on this forum that talk about politics etc. Semantics and time-saving, not malice was my intention.

[STLantny]

When a political movement declares their doctrines to be Divinely Revealed Truth, then considering counterarguments becomes a political form of heresy. Cults work this way every day, and so can political parties and political movements if they metasticize. At the moment, the right wing has absolutely gone off the deep end in this direction, and you see it in virtually every post by party apologists here. "The Leader can do no wrong". "The Party can do no wrong". "There is only one True Party". "The Party represents the Will of God". "Opposition to the Party is the work of the Devil". Etc, etc, etc. Read the forum with that in mind and it makes a lot more sense.

q/q

[/ QUOTE ]



So you are saying that the WHOLE republican party is a bunch of over-zealous, apologist, that believe they are divinly inspired as the chosen party? In all honesty, I havent seen much talk about Religion on this forum, so you must be getting this rhetoric from someone.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand??? How does the you people comment make me a hypocrite?

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough....let me explain (without malice or bad intention) how I interpret what you're saying, and you tell me what I missed.

[ QUOTE ]
Im not liberal or conservative I dont think. I have leanings of both. But you chastise the republicans for blindly following someone, yet you seem to do the same thing, using snide remarks against anyone who seems to disagree with you (which I dont necassarily). Its just that both sides posture and look down on the other, almost leading me to believe that you people are the very thing you hate the most. And if it is one thing I hate its hypocrites.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took the 'you people' appelation in the above quote to be doing exactly what you say that you hate in the same quote, i.e. posturing and looking down on the other.

If I've misunderstood, my apology.

Would you explain your view further?


<font color="orange"> </font>

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont think I really look down on anyone, or at least enough that I dont take the time to at least, listen to what they are saying. IE. there ARE groups that I will dismiss moreso than others (Nazi's, hate groups), but I at least TRY to process what they are saying. Most people that I see on TV/Forums only process things enough, to make fun of/discredit them.

The term "you people" is just quicker than typing, people who are on this forum that talk about politics etc. Semantics and time-saving, not malice was my intention.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the sentiment, and agree with most of it, but I try to be careful about making sweeping generalizations that can be easily misinterpreted, such as your above 'Most people.....' sentence.

I saw no malice in your statement, just did not understand what I perceived to be an ambiguity, hence my request for clarification.

Thank you for the clarification.........

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
I havent seen much talk about Religion on this forum, so you must be getting this rhetoric from someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense at all.

Either I'm parroting what I read here or I'm parroting what I hear somewhere else?

Those are the only two options?


q/q

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I havent seen much talk about Religion on this forum, so you must be getting this rhetoric from someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense at all.

Either I'm parroting what I read here or I'm parroting what I hear somewhere else?

Those are the only two options?


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

You may not blindly follow a person, but you blindly follow something. I didnt mention anything about rightwingers/religion/leftwingers or for that matter politics. I did however comment on the fact that no one really listens to the other side. And you didnt really take the time to read what I wrote, but chose to take the time to bash whovever is on the other side of your beliefs, something of which I really didnt ask for. My point is, this isnt about politics, as much as it is communication. In my opinion, its peoples political pre-conceived notions that are blinding.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
Another part is that this is an online forum so people have all the time in the world to make up a response, research things online (as we all know most online sources suck).

[/ QUOTE ]
We don't have all the time in the world, and credible replies should not include "suck" sources. We should be sophisticated enough to tell the difference.

I would simply look at it as an adult. When my children fought, I wanted to know who started it -- because I didn't fault the other for responding in kind (I tried to teach them better, but I didn't fault them).

In this particular crisis, there has been one side which keeps throwing accusations that have no foundation. When they are disproved, they throw another volley. They will continue to do this until they believe they have finally stumbled across some truth. In the process they will gloss over any unfavorable facts. This is the difference between childhood and adulthood.

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
You may not blindly follow a person, but you blindly follow something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two key words here: "follow" and "blindly".

You have established neither.

And I won't even get into the whole "someone"/"something" word-game that you're trying to play (queue ominous theme music, of course).

[ QUOTE ]
I didnt mention anything about rightwingers/religion/leftwingers or for that matter politics.

[/ QUOTE ]

You posted this to a politics forum. I presume that you chose this forum for a reason. Is that incorrect?

[ QUOTE ]
I did however comment on the fact that no one really listens to the other side. And you didnt really take the time to read what I wrote, but chose to take the time to bash whovever is on the other side of your beliefs, something of which I really didnt ask for.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I'm not really worried about what you did or didn't "ask for". You get the replies you get. As for me, I simply read your post, found that I agreed with your general point, and I then offered what I considered to be a fairly important elaboration which was very relevent to this particular forum.

If you'd take a moment to re-read my original reply, you'll notice that what I'm talking about is an attitude -- the reduction of politics to articles of faith and heresy. (note : I'm sorry if it offends you that I don't see the right and the left as equally guilty on this front, but the fact is that I don't. And I don't because they aren't.)

[ QUOTE ]
My point is, this isnt about politics, as much as it is communication. In my opinion, its peoples political pre-conceived notions that are blinding.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is precisely the point of my replies so far.


q/q