Too Aggressive or just stupid?

[Taxmanrick]

Am I over-valuing this flush draw on the flop and turn and Am I wasting a bet on the river? No read on villain. I thought on the river taht I could get him to fold small K (that's what I put him on)since I had been aggressive up to this point.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB.

[RatFink]

I prefer to take the free card on the turn and check behind, I would not like to be check-raised here while I have outs.

On the river he will either bet into me or check to me again, depending on the type of player he is.

If I hit and he bets into me, I like that a lot.
If I miss and he bets into me, I wish I had reads but fold against an unknown.

If I hit and he checks, I bet.
If I miss and he checks, I check behind and see if my A high is good.

[jrz1972]

Preflop and flop are standard.

On the turn I sometimes bet and sometimes take the free card. All things considered, it's probably best to check behind here. First of all, I obviously can't fold to a check-raise, so that's one argument against betting. Second, the flop came down pretty drawless, so when villain calls my flop bet he probably has some sort of made hand, so I'm unlikely to be ahead. Third, if villain has a made hand, even bottom pair, he probably isn't folding it. This is the sort of turn I often auto-bet without thinking about it, but on reflection just about everything points to a check.

The river is spewing. Most villains won't fold a 2 here, let alone a K. When you get called on the turn it's time to give up.

[invictus33]

How is that flop bet a standard play? Hero whiffed about as bas as he could on the flop and is drawing to 4 outs at best with his BDFD and 3 A outs. Hero isn't even coming close to the odds to bet this. Take the free card on the flop.

When the diamond comes to give him a flush draw he's sitting better to make a value bet on the turn if he wants. At the least he should be calling if villian leads out the turn.

Hero has missed everything after the river card comes out, check/fold because he isn't winning anything A high.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
How is that flop bet a standard play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero often has the best hand at the moment. If he doesn't, a bet will sometimes fold out something like bottom pair. If not, Hero will often be offered a free card on the turn.

BTW, if you think Hero is behind on the flop, you can't argue for a "value bet" on the turn, as Hero would still be behind and doesn't have enough equity to bet for value.

[Raisans]

My standard line is to play the hand like you until the river, where I would check. You won't fold a better hand here often at all by betting. If I had a read on villain as aggressive/tricky, I would consider checking the turn, but at 1/2 I think A-high has showdown value even if the flop is pretty drawless and I consider betting for a free showdown as standard since the average 1/2 player will not check/raise us very often on the turn.

[Rico Suave]

Invictus:

[ QUOTE ]
How is that flop bet a standard play? Hero whiffed about as bas as he could on the flop and is drawing to 4 outs at best with his BDFD and 3 A outs. Hero isn't even coming close to the odds to bet this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not betting here is a mistake. We have a K high ragged board against only 2 opponents. He is going to take this down on the flop often enough to show an immediate profit.

--Rico

[teajay]

Check behind on the river.

I'm fine with the rest of the hand though. There are enough damn rocks in 1/2 that you'll fold them on the flop or turn often enough. Not to mention the few times you spike a pair or win with A high.

[invictus33]

Villian certainly isn't showing you much of anything and without reads he holding exactly two cards. If he's a calling station (which is what it looks like) he could be sitting on any pair and is not going to fold it out to a single bet. He's been calling the whole way anyhow, no reason to think he'll change that now.

Call it what you will, if the flop checks through and then villian checks again on the turn I'll bet a flush draw anytime.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Check behind on the river.

I'm fine with the rest of the hand though. There are enough damn rocks in 1/2 that you'll fold them on the flop or turn often enough. Not to mention the few times you spike a pair or win with A high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfectly stated.

-DeathDonkey

[Taxmanrick]

I guess I should slow down and ask myself...what am I beating here. Only a better hand would call. Now that I think about it, I know I read that in SSHE. DAMN!!! Shoulda checked!

[deception5]

I just wanted to respond to some of the criticism of this hand and reiterate what jrz is saying. The preflop/flop bets are totally standard. It seems a lot of people look at the flop bet as a bluff, but very often these are value bets with the best hand, you don't need a pair to have the best hand. Think about the possible range for UTG/MP1 here. Sure sometimes they have a pocket pair (although you have to discount 99+ since they didn't raise and many people don't play low pockets UTG), KQ, KJ (and often they will let you know) but how many times (on the flop) are we up against JT/98/QJ/Axs/etc, with our opponents drawing to 6 outs or less? And the 2/3 are very unlikely to have helped anyone here so we are ahead the vast majority of the time. If you just check behind on the flop you are giving something like 98 a free chance to outdraw you - as you still have the best hand (which is vulnerable). The beauty of ace high is that you are ahead of your opponents with no pair from the getgo and they have to draw to a maxmium of 6 outs to beat you (or less if they have a worse ace). Keep in mind they, like you, will only hit the flop 33% of the time.

[Raisans]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian certainly isn't showing you much of anything and without reads he holding exactly two cards. If he's a calling station (which is what it looks like) he could be sitting on any pair and is not going to fold it out to a single bet. He's been calling the whole way anyhow, no reason to think he'll change that now.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't sure. And I don't know why you assume that this opponent will call down just because he saw the flop. Bet the flop! And IMO a follow up on the turn is correct.

[Ivanapolis]

Certainly: Just too stupid!

[Ivanapolis]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
Villian certainly isn't showing you much of anything and without reads he holding exactly two cards. If he's a calling station (which is what it looks like) he could be sitting on any pair and is not going to fold it out to a single bet. He's been calling the whole way anyhow, no reason to think he'll change that now.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't sure. And I don't know why you assume that this opponent will call down just because he saw the flop. Bet the flop! And IMO a follow up on the turn is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's right. But the stupid river-bet will cost a lot of money in the long run.

[Taxmanrick]

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly: Just too stupid!

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked for that!!!!