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01-11-2002, 10:38 PM
Don't talk about your heart being broken as a Yankee fan. As a long suffering Red Sox fan, I have seen the worst. Here's two plays that make it into the Hall of Shame:


1. Pitcher John Wyatt forgets to duck and gets plunked in the head on a throw to second base during a steal attempt. Catcher might have been Bob Tilman.


2. I think it might have been Willie Wilson of the Royals stealing third--on an intentional walk!


John

01-11-2002, 10:47 PM
Part of the eternal suffering due Red Sox fans is hearing Yankee fans talk about heartbreak.


Sorry, just stirring the pot. I was raised a Cubs fan so have some idea. I do like hearing Cubs fans or Red Sox fans moaning about their teams over too many beers at various dive bars.

01-12-2002, 12:25 AM
HDPM,


The only thing I'm thankful for is that I'm not a Cubs fan--talk about real misery.


John

01-12-2002, 01:05 AM
You're right, it's unseemly. Many more good moments than bad ones for we Yankee fans.


Worst two losses I've seen in baseball in my lifetime both involved your Sox in 1986, one good and one bad for Sox fans. The Angels led the Sox 3 games to 1 and 5-2 in the ninth inning of game 5 and failed to win the pennant! Boston scored 4 in the top of the ninth to take a 6-5 lead, the Angels scored one in the bottom of the inning to tie, but then Boston pushed one across in the 11th to win 7-6 (possibly the greatest baseball game ever player) and then crushed the Angels in games 6 and 7 for an improbable comeback pennant.


Then, in the World Series, the Red Sox, up 3 games to 2, led 5-3 in the 10th inning of game 6 with two out and nobody on base. I think you know about the play that ended that game. Then Boston led 3-0 in the 6th inning of game 7 and. . .

01-12-2002, 01:32 AM
Didn't that Angel's pitcher commit suicide? Donnie Moore wasn't it? I tend to root for the Red Sox in the DH league, I guess it's natural for Cubs fans. I remember watching the post season on T.V. that year. (In your L.A. actually.) Brutal. I'm glad Buckner hasn't killed himself or anything. I hated that Mets team. Hated Straw. And the vile Gary Carter. Wasn't Ray Knight with the Mets that year? I hate him. Hated them all. Hated them I say. Made me sick to see them win. I can't imagine what it was like for a diehard Red Sox fan.

01-12-2002, 05:12 AM
is Game 6 of that World Series. I remember doing the whole "close my eyes" thing during every at bat in that last inning. Every at bat seemed to last an eternity. It wasn't as if the Red Sox were 1 strike away once or twice. I believe they had two strikes on four or five different betters and couldn't get the final out. Not only that, they had 2 strikes on each of those batters for a while. They just kept fouling pitches away. One thing about the Buckner ground ball that people forget is that the tieing run had already been scored on a wild pitch. To me it had to be the most exciting, pressure packed inning in the history of baseball.

That's one reason I am and always will be a Mets fan. The thrills provided in that one post season were more than some teams provide their fans in a lifetime.


PS How can you call Gary Carter vile? He's always been known as a nice guy.

01-12-2002, 05:34 AM
I gotta disagree. Being a Red Sox fan is tougher.


Sure, the Cubs usually toil in the sub-.500 range most years and occasionally make the playoffs and lose quickly. That creates low expectations.


But, the Red Sox TEASE you. They make you think they can actually win it all and then rip your heart out. The 1986 World Series collapse is almost impossible to believe.

01-12-2002, 05:38 AM
When Dave Henderson hit his home run in the top of the 10th inning to give the Red Sox a one run lead, I lost total control of myself. I was 15 years old and was experiencing the most exhilirating moment of my life. We had won it!


Then, I learned what it was to be a Red Sox fan.

01-12-2002, 06:40 AM
Donnie Moore did commit suicide 2 years later.

01-12-2002, 12:58 PM
I hated him. I think it was obvious from my post that there is no rational basis for my hatred. So I called Gary Carter vile because I hated him. I hated the Mets. Whether he actually is I don't know. But I hate him and think he's vile. I hated how he looked and how people liked him and the Mets. Hated him. /images/smile.gif

01-12-2002, 11:46 PM
If I'm remembering correctly, Moore also went through some problems with his wife (I think a messy divorce) and this, in combination with the horror of that loss, contributed to his demise. I thought about him after Kim, the Diamondbacks relief pitcher, kneeled, obviously distraught, after giving up his second consecutive 2-out game-blowing home run.


The Buckner debacle was the manager's fault. He had bad legs and should have come out for a defensive replacement.


I know nothing about Carter's personality, perhaps you have justification for "vile," but he was a helluva player and I think will get into the Hall of Fame next year, deservedly so, IMHO.


Knight was indeed with the Mets that year, hit .298 and did his usual dreadful job at third base. Worst baseball analyst I've ever heard too.


"I hated that Mets team. Hated Straw. And the vile Gary Carter. Wasn't Ray Knight with the Mets that year? I hate him. Hated them all. Hated them I say. Made me sick to see them win."


You gotta let it out, HDPM, don't hold it in. It's no good for you. Tell us how you REALLY felt about them.

01-12-2002, 11:52 PM
An interesting point. It's harder on you when your team is good and then falls just short. That's what I meant about Rivera's throw to second base and Mazeroski's home run. When your team is good, there are just that many more opportunities to get close and not quite make it. I note that the Tampa Bay Bucaneers are expected to fire their coach following today's loss to Philadelphia, who has turned them from a laughing stock into a playoff team, but now they want more. Getting close with no cigar is his crime.


My Yankees have had their share of disappointments, but obviously a lot more triumphs. The Red Sox, of course, haven't won the World Series since Woodrow Wilson was president, so what can you say?

01-13-2002, 12:00 AM
I noted in the paper the other day that the Red Sox manager said he hadn't spoken to Pedro Martinez since the end of the season.


Huh?


You've got the best pitcher on the planet and your team is making moves right and left and he was injured and felt the team didn't believe him and the team is being sold, or maybe it isn't being sold, and the manager doesn't speak to the guy for three months?


Remember how Mike Mussina said how impressed he was that Joe Torre called him several times before he went on vacation after the Yankees won the 2000 World Series? This was a guy the Yankees were thinking about getting for their team. Contrast that with how the Red Sox are dealing with a guy that's already on their team and who, by the way, is a run-and-a-half to two runs better than anybody else in the league.

01-13-2002, 12:02 AM
This is what Roger Clemens has experienced in the five years since he left the Sox:


1st year: Cy Young Award

2nd year: Cy Young Award

3rd year: World Series Championship

4th year: World Series Championship

5th year: Cy Young Award


Twilight of his career indeed, Mr. Duquette.

01-13-2002, 12:18 PM

01-16-2002, 02:28 AM
I met Gary Carter when I was 11 years old. I waited on line at a mall for 2-3 hours with strep throat and a 103 fever. I was not disappointed. He took the time to (at least momentarily) talk to each fan and was all smiles. I met a bunch of players at baseball card shows and such and some of them did not even take the time to look up...sign and push...sign and push. Others would say a forced hello and shake your hand if you made them. Gary Carter, however was a real class act. You could tell he really appreciated his fans. My other favorites were Whitey Ford and Harmon Killebrew. Both were extremely friendly. Hall of Fame? Well, I guess .262 is ok, it was kind of a dead ball era...

01-16-2002, 02:22 PM
Batting average is the most overrated statistic. On base percentage more accurately measure what batting average is purported to measure: the ability to get on base, what we call "hitting" but should more accurately call "batting."


One also has to take into account the offensive context of the era, as you point out. In 1930, Bill Terry hit .401 to lead the National League. But the league average was .307. In 1968, Carl Yastrzemski hit just .301 to lead the American League. But the league hit just .230.


Was Terry that much better a hitter? Of course not. Terry's batting average was 31% over that of the league; Yaz's was 30%. Not much difference.


Bill Terry is in the Hall of Fame. Gary Carter was a better player than Bill Terry.

01-16-2002, 03:03 PM
But I hate Gary Carter and not Bill Terry.:)

01-16-2002, 07:56 PM
north side chicago bar during baseball season. and not one of them trendy yuppy bars, the neighborhood bars where everybody is depressed and knows which songs on the jukebox skip... the cubs always start out great, and have great players, and every year, all of chicago is hoping and watching, and the season slowly goes downhill.