Iraq War making us safer?

[newfant]

Iraq still appears to be a bottomless pit of terror and
despair:

"Fighters loyal to militant leader Abu Musab Zarqawi asserted control over the key Iraqi border town of Qaim on Monday, killing U.S. collaborators and enforcing strict Islamic law, according to tribal members, officials, residents and others in the town and nearby villages.

...

Many of the towns along the river have been subject to domination by foreign-led fighters, despite repeated Marine offensives in the area since May. Residents and Marines have described insurgents escaping ahead of such drives, and returning when the offensives end.

...

In Baghdad, insurgents launched a dawn attack on the Interior Ministry, killing two police officers, officials said. Other political violence Monday in Baghdad killed at least 13 civilians, the Associated Press reported."

link to story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090500313_pf.html)

I hope we make it through this coming 9/11 anniversary without a terrorist attack. A terrorist attack at this time would be truly devasting. After its handling of this hurricane disaster, FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security do not inspire confidence so I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what might happen on the 9/11 anniversary.

[Broken Glass Can]

I thought the Iraq issue was dead. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

We haven't had a thread in days.

Consider this: We would be worse off against world terror without our efforts in Iraq, so on net the Iraq effort was worth it and is making us safer.

Plus the lives of people in Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya and other countries have improved, and we should not dismiss the well being of our fellow world citizens.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
We would be worse off against world terror without our efforts in Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, right!

Without the invasion, let's see: There would not be an Islamic Constitution over Iraq; there would be no Shia clerics ruling the country; there would be equal rights for women; there would be no thousands of terrorists/insurgents up in arms in Iraq; there would be no terrorist activities around the world related to the Iraq War (Madrid, London); there would be fewer "points of reference" for radical Muslim propagands; and many other things.

All bad, according to the Looney Right.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the Iraq issue was dead. We haven't had a thread in days.

[/ QUOTE ]
I rather think you are subconsciously trying to write about Iraqi dead. Or American dead in Iraq. "We haven't had a dead in days."

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
Without the invasion, let's see: There would not be an Islamic Constitution over Iraq; there would be no Shia clerics ruling the country; there would be equal rights for women

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, I didn't realize how much better off they were with Saddam.

[BadgerAle]

What bothers me the most is not whether Iraqis and Afgans are better off now or then (this is arguable, and it will only be revealled in time- At the moment i'd rather be in sadam's iraq), but whether the US-led coalition has tried the best it can to improve the lives of the people of these countries. It seems to me that in Afganistan this hasn't happened- that the US would rather leave them in a mess and divert its money to invading iraq.
This shows how far down the list of objectives improving the lives of foreigners is to the Bush government.

[evil_twin]

[ QUOTE ]
Consider this: We would be worse off against world terror without our efforts in Iraq, so on net the Iraq effort was worth it and is making us safer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt you yourself even belive this line at this point in the conflict. I can tell you that the rest of us don't!

[cardcounter0]

Terrorist Attacks by Iraq before invasion: 0

Terrorist Attacks by Iraq after invasion : 0

[BadgerAle]

Terrorist Attacks by inspired by Iraq before invasion: 0

Terrorist Attacks by inspired by Iraq after invasion : at least 3 major international (probably more), very numerous within iraq.

The only posiible way that anyone could think the iraq war makes westerners safer is as a long term preventative of the chance of nuclear terrorism. EVERY other effect has caused an INCREASE in terrorism. This obviously was not a objective. The increase in terrorism must have been seen as an acceptable price for the other objective/s.

[Toro]

There will be residual effects of letting this war in Iraq drag on and on. Future US Presidents will be loathe to use military force anywhere else for fear of the same, not to mention making it impossible to sell it to Congress and the American people.

The same thing happened after Vietnam until Bush senior demonstrated a new doctrine for waging war with the first Gulf War. He got in, accomplished the mission and got out. Sadly his son ignores this.

[Cyrus]

You folks are sometimes just too obvious.

You write (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3329164&amp;page=101&amp;view =expanded&amp;sb=6&amp;o=&amp;vc=1), quite inanely, "We would be worse off against <font color="blue"> world terror</font> without our efforts in Iraq."


And as soon as you are challenged, you respond with a change of subject (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3329529&amp;page=101&amp;view =expanded&amp;sb=6&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) : "Wow, I didn't realize how much better off [the Iraqis] were <font color="blue"> with Saddam </font>."

You're fast but not that fast.

[FishHooks]

You know whats funny. These liberals cry about the tiny freedoms that are being taken away from the patriot act to protect our security then they go and say yea I would rather be under Saddam's regime today. If that's not hypocracy than I dont know what is.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
These liberals cry about the tiny freedoms that are being taken away from the patriot act to protect our security then they go and say yea I would rather be under Saddam's regime today.

[/ QUOTE ]
You must be under some sort of hallucination.

The point that yer fellow conservative Broken Glass Can made was that the war in Iraq made the world safer from terror. And when it was pointed out to him that it most certainly DID NOT, he changed tack and started mumbling about Iraqis better off without Hussein!

[ QUOTE ]
If that's not hypocricy than I dont know what is.

[/ QUOTE ]
What the anti-war crowd is doing is "being accurate and consistent". What you guys are doing is a Chubby Checker dance.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Terrorist Attacks by inspired by Iraq before invasion: 0

Terrorist Attacks by inspired by Iraq after invasion : at least 3 major international (probably more), very numerous within iraq.

The only posiible way that anyone could think the iraq war makes westerners safer is as a long term preventative of the chance of nuclear terrorism. EVERY other effect has caused an INCREASE in terrorism. This obviously was not a objective. The increase in terrorism must have been seen as an acceptable price for the other objective/s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the terrorist acts you are alluding too also used Afghanistan in addition to Iraq as an excuse. Also, you must surely remember the multitude of terrorist attacks against the US prior to our invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan(embassy bombings, USS Cole, etc). Its pretty apparant that terrorist have and will attack us regardless of what we do. People who think otherwise are fools.

Attempting to bring democracy to the middle east is a bold and daring plan. Its also the plan which will likely end middle east terrorism against the United States.

Stu

[FishHooks]

You again went on a tanget about what someone else said and not about my argument. If anyone can dissprove why my argument is wrong be my guest.

[tolbiny]

You didn't make an argument. You made a broad (and insulting) generaliazation about "liberals" and then wrote some non sequiter about Saddam and the patriot act.

[lozen]

It was not Iraq that attacked you!!! In reality it was the talliban funded by the Saudi's.

Also your loosing the war

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
Attempting to bring democracy to the middle east is a bold and daring plan. Its also the plan which will likely end middle east terrorism against the United States.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you force democracy on a country if they don't really want it? This country is democratic because the people that lived here at the time fought for it. Iraq is pseudo-democratic because American soldiers are over there imposing it. As soon as the American soldiers pull out of an area, some terrorist group moves in.

If we ever pull out completely does anyone over there care enough to continue to fight for "democracy?"

[BadgerAle]

"Its pretty apparant that terrorist have and will attack us regardless of what we do. People who think otherwise are fools. "

This statement may have some truth in it, but we are talking about degrees of safty here (this is iherent in the question). The war obviously has decreased our current safety- i don't think even someone like you would argue against that. Its probably best for you to make a more relevent statment before proclaiming people fools.

You go on to talk about the war as part of a plan to spread democracy in the middle east- thus, among other things, raising world safety. This is a good point- if it works, i'm afraid that the US isn't as concerned about this as it makes out. I am not really against the war in principal, just the exection of it, the lying about it and lack of interest in the after-war. As i said before only time will tell if it works out.

[BadgerAle]

[ QUOTE ]
You know whats funny. These liberals cry about the tiny freedoms that are being taken away from the patriot act to protect our security then they go and say yea I would rather be under Saddam's regime today. If that's not hypocracy than I dont know what is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone said this exactly, i said ,that in terms of safety, i would rather be in pre-war iraq than post war. It seems a common tactic here to pick out something only vaguely relevent to the point being argued that could be taken in a certain context and use it as a suitable response despite it not addressing much in particular.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
Iraq still appears to be a bottomless pit of terror and
despair:

"Fighters loyal to militant leader Abu Musab Zarqawi asserted control over the key Iraqi border town of Qaim on Monday, killing U.S. collaborators and enforcing strict Islamic law, according to tribal members, officials, residents and others in the town and nearby villages.

...

Many of the towns along the river have been subject to domination by foreign-led fighters, despite repeated Marine offensives in the area since May. Residents and Marines have described insurgents escaping ahead of such drives, and returning when the offensives end.

...

In Baghdad, insurgents launched a dawn attack on the Interior Ministry, killing two police officers, officials said. Other political violence Monday in Baghdad killed at least 13 civilians, the Associated Press reported."

link to story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090500313_pf.html)

I hope we make it through this coming 9/11 anniversary without a terrorist attack. A terrorist attack at this time would be truly devasting. After its handling of this hurricane disaster, FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security do not inspire confidence so I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what might happen on the 9/11 anniversary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it matter what anyone says unless they happen to agree with your ideology?

[nicky g]

Noone would rather Saddam was back in charge in and of itself. Noone wants to put him in charge. The point is whether the reasons given and the benefits from the war outweigh the costs of the war. Saying anti-war protestors preferred Saddam in charge is like saying you prefer Chinese communists to be in power than democrats because you don't support going to war to topple them. There are costs and repercussions involved.

[BadgerAle]

[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter what anyone says unless they happen to agree with your ideology?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could try something relevent and informative?
You would have to concede that we are currently less safe because of the war but could then talk about how it is a long term solution that would eventually result in a safer world.
Then again I'm begining to wonder why i bother if to have an intelligent discussion i end up having to take both sides.

[FishHooks]

"At the moment i'd rather be in sadam's iraq" these were your exact words, even if it is out of contex who cares, thats a pretty bold statement.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
You could try something relevent and informative?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the point? All I will get is rambling, incoherent nonsense in response.

[ QUOTE ]
You would have to concede that we are currently less safe because of the war but could then talk about how it is a long term solution that would eventually result in a safer world.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not agree that we are LESS safe as a result of the war in Iraq. There is nothing at all to suggest that we are less safe. There is a lot to suggest that we are more safe. A pathetic example is the fact that we haven't had a terrorist attack on the US since the Iraq war started, we did before. They have nothing to do with each other in reality, but neither does anything that has been suggested that indicates we are less safe.

[ QUOTE ]
Then again I'm begining to wonder why i bother if to have an intelligent discussion i end up having to take both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you don't. I am simply wondering what evidence there is to say that we are "less safe" as a result of the Iraq war. In what context are you posing the question? It really is far too broad, and probably an impossible, question to answer accurately due to geopolitical ramifications of having, or not having, the Iraq war.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
We are more safe. A pathetic example is the fact that we haven't had a terrorist attack on the US since the Iraq war started.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are more safe. A pathetic example is the fact that we haven't had a terrorist attack on the US since the Iraq war started.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha, yea thats funny because you....well...you did that clever thing where you inserted something he didnt say because it alligned more with your views, yea......i get it.....thats kinda funny.

[twowords]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are more safe. A pathetic example is the fact that we haven't had a terrorist attack on the US since the Iraq war started.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha, yea thats funny because you....well...you did that clever thing where you inserted something he didnt say because it alligned more with your views, yea......i get it.....thats kinda funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, you presume too much.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
hahaha, yea thats funny because you....well...you did that clever thing where you inserted something he didn't say because it alligned more with your views, yea......i get it.....thats kinda funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
You inserted something he didnt say because it alligned more with your views.

[/ QUOTE ]
I quoted Jaxmike verbatim. I don't do "inserts".

If you object to my highlighting the funny part in his post, so be it.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You inserted something he didnt say because it alligned more with your views.

[/ QUOTE ]
I quoted Jaxmike verbatim. I don't do "inserts".

If you object to my highlighting the funny part in his post, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wrote that because I was making fun of the people who actually used that as an example. Was this not clear? That is why I used the term "a pathetic example"....