Comment re: SNG FAQ

[binions]

Says very good ROI for 55-215 is 20%.

According to Daliman, his ROI is 14% at the 215 level, and Gigabet is 17%. Zee Justin just finished a 1000 game set with a 14% ROI.

Seems like 15-17% ROI is about as good as you can hope for long term on the Party 215s. Perhaps the FAQ should be modified a bit.

[Taraz]

Yeah, that seems a bit high for the 215s. But I doubt someone is jumping straight to the 215s after reading the FAQ.

Just adding this here because I didn't see it in the FAQ and Citanul might in fact read this:

Can you add a good finish distribution? I was thinking about it yesterday but didn't want to make a thread and be berated. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[se2schul]

Ya, I think the faq should be updated. There are quite a few posts on here where people say that the $11s, $22s, and $33s should be easily beatable for a 35-40% ROI. Although I don't doubt that a few gifted people can attain those ROIs over the long term, I'd bet that most people with a 40% ROI are just running well on the short term.

Anyway, when I started playing, I felt like I really sucked since my ROI was below 20%. Maybe it should be noted that this is pretty normal for most winning players and that only a few elite players absolutely destroy the game at much higher ROI.

[citanul]

Well, a few things:

1) I don't know where you got that number for Gigabet's ROI.
2) The numbers in the FAQ were mostly for people 4 tabling the 200s
3) Those people you cite 8+ table.

But I'll think about changing that. Though it clearly isn't all that important.

citanul

[45suited]

prolly the most important thing to add to the faq would be something in the title like "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING FOR THE FIRST TIME!".

[citanul]

If I make a comment about finish distribution, it will be the same one I always make, which is that if you're hitting a decent ROI/hourly rate, you shouldn't care at all about your finish distribution. Though clearly some people like those things that say like "if you finish 10th x% of the time, you should tighten up early," "if you finish in xth place too much, you are doing y wrong," etc. I'm not a fan of those because well, there's different styles that win, including some that finish in 10th a good deal.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Ya, I think the faq should be updated. There are quite a few posts on here where people say that the $11s, $22s, and $33s should be easily beatable for a 35-40% ROI. Although I don't doubt that a few gifted people can attain those ROIs over the long term, I'd bet that most people with a 40% ROI are just running well on the short term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Changing the FAQ can't change what other people post in their posts. And I think the FAQ doesn't say that such ROIs should be "easily" acheived. The goal of the numbers in the FAQ is just to give people a reasonable idea of about what numbers are attainable, mostly 4 tabling. I'll consider making a more detailed ROI section, but also consider removing the section entirely and filling it with text and no numbers. Overall, many new players are far far far too concerned with what their ROI is over 200 games, or what it is in relation to the best ever, or even worse, what Gigabet's ROI is or similar. Blech.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, when I started playing, I felt like I really sucked since my ROI was below 20%. Maybe it should be noted that this is pretty normal for most winning players and that only a few elite players absolutely destroy the game at much higher ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but yoou're wrong. Most winning players can beat the 10s and such for more than "below 20%." I am just not going to apologize for the fact that you couldn't understand when you began playing that there's a difference between a player who has just started playing and a player who has been playing for quite some time. The fact that you thought you sucked was completely a result of your not understanding that.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
prolly the most important thing to add to the faq would be something in the title like "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING FOR THE FIRST TIME!".

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, when I started playing, I felt like I really sucked since my ROI was below 20%. Maybe it should be noted that this is pretty normal for most winning players and that only a few elite players absolutely destroy the game at much higher ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but yoou're wrong. Most winning players can beat the 10s and such for more than "below 20%." I am just not going to apologize for the fact that you couldn't understand when you began playing that there's a difference between a player who has just started playing and a player who has been playing for quite some time. The fact that you thought you sucked was completely a result of your not understanding that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong here. Take all the people who beat the $11s and look at their ROIs. You're going to get a lot of people with ROI's of like 0.3% or 2% and such. There will also be some people with high ROIs in the 30% and 40% range. I doubt however that "most" of the winning players beat them for over 20%. In fact, I'd imagine that the average winning player's ROI is something like 10%.

[chisness]

would be cool if it showed top, very good, good, average ROIs for each level 4 tabling, then the effect of adding 4, 8, or subtracting 2, 1 tables had (if anyone could accurately predict these things)

[45suited]

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but why is it so blessed important that the FAQ relect expected ROIs with such precision anyway? Citanul gave reasonable ballpark figures... Are we all so good that our time is best spent quibbling over a % point or two rather than actually analyzing, you know, poker and SNG strategy?

[cow_phunk]

[ QUOTE ]
would be cool if it showed top, very good, good, average ROIs for each level 4 tabling, then the effect of adding 4, 8, or subtracting 2, 1 tables had (if anyone could accurately predict these things)

[/ QUOTE ]


i hear a SNG FAQ novel is only about a month from its first printing. these are valid questions that go a little past someone's first questions on SNGs. the search feature can answer damn near all of these for you and provide better insight than one person writing the FAQ can.

[Slim Pickens]

The Spreadsheet: Many 2+2'ers have worked to author the 2+2 STT Excel Spreadsheet. Anyone with a working copy of Microsoft Excel should feel free to download the spreadsheet file. It tracks tournament results, giving you a lot of pretty pictures and splits. It also tracks bankroll and hourly rate. The latest version, version 2.5 (http://mowrmowr.com/poker/SUPER_SNG_w_UI_PT_v2.5.zip), has a summary page to show daily, weekly, and monthly results. The previous version, version 2.4b (http://mowrmowr.com/poker/2.4b/SUPER_SNG_w_UI_PT_v2.4b.zip), is less computationally demanding and might be better for those with slower computers, although it doesn't do the daily/weekly/monthly totals. The user guide (http://mowrmowr.com/poker/AM_User_Guide_Draft.pdf) gives a brief introduction for new users.

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but why is it so blessed important that the FAQ relect expected ROIs with such precision anyway? Citanul gave reasonable ballpark figures... Are we all so good that our time is best spent quibbling over a % point or two rather than actually analyzing, you know, poker and SNG strategy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this is a huge concern to new players, at least it was for me. I agree focussing too much on ROI is of less benefit than learning proper strategy, however it should still be mentionned. If a new player reads that 30 or 40% is a normal ROI for the $11s, he's going to feel like a failure with anything less.

I think it would be great to have a quick blurb on each of the different sites where most people here play sngs. Buy-ins, starting chips, blind structure, fish factor, and relative number of players that play sngs at the site (how quickly you can get into a game or games.

[FlyWf]

Normal ROI for the $11s is -9%. If you feel like a failure because you only have an 18% you are crazy and probably aren't cut out for poker.

The FAQ gives good lines for what is sustainable, because there's a lot more newbies who have 65% ROIs over their last 30 $11s who post silly brag posts than there are crazy people who might have their feelings hurt by the knowledge that they aren't the best $11 player ever.