Any Interest in a Split Forum?

[Degen]

Subject brought up in another thread

I think splitting this forum up into a Small Stakes and Mid-Hi Stakes would be very good for both groups. The cutoff would probably be best at the Party $50+5 level...

I don't know how this is done but thought I'd throw it out there.

[gumpzilla]

This subject comes up pretty frequently. There's generally a little interest, but not nearly enough to do it. I don't really see the point, as there aren't that many people posting hands from 100+ SNGs.

If you're getting bored with the SNG forum, read MTT and MHNL.

[cleinen]

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2652959 )

[ChuckNorris]

So to which one would the $50+5's belong to? I can see arguments for both.

[Degen]

not bored, i can't keep up with all the stuff, and personally i've been getting a lot of response on hands i post from people who obviously do not play at the same level/have no idea what they are talking about

i think that if the forum were split, the people who play higher limits would post more and share more...its just that currently such a great % of the threads are dedicated to low stakes stuff...

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
So to which one would the $50+5's belong to? I can see arguments for both.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd say mid/hi because of the chip difference, but i really have no preference

It will never work... The same people will be posting the same ol' crap in the mid/hi forum. And no one will want to visit the low limit forum because people will ask the same questions over and over again...

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
same ol' crap

[/ QUOTE ]

eh? the game changes constantly...

no offense, but posts like this one are exactly the reason i'd personally like to see them split

that is not what i meant...

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
same ol' crap

[/ QUOTE ]

eh? the game changes constantly...

no offense, but posts like this one are exactly the reason i'd personally like to see them split

[/ QUOTE ]

this post is ironic

I enjoy reading posts from you high stakes players, LC or not. I vote no.

[Roland32]

I think people forget that the high limit players dont like helping each other out!

[Nicholasp27]

i vote no

everyone will just use both forums..it'll just be one more place to visit each time...and then posts will be more likely to go unnoticed due to people missing them from one forum or the other

u wanna get rid of the newbie and troll posts, but u can't ever do that...no matter how many forums u make, there will always be newbie and troll posts

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
u wanna get rid of the newbie and troll posts, but u can't ever do that...no matter how many forums u make, there will always be newbie and troll posts

[/ QUOTE ]
I mentioned this in the other thread. The problem of trolling posts is entirely a result of how little 2+2 allows the moderator to delete. I moderate on two non-poker sites on the internet and the signal to moise ratio there is much better than here. One receives comparable traffic to this forum and one receives far more and neither has nearly as much garbage on it.

I think that unless Mat lets the moderators actually moderate the problems that exist on the current forum will continue after the forum is split. Honestly, to create the forum quality Degen wants I think it would have to be hosted elsehwere and I can't see long time posters going there.

[Weatherhead03]

I vote no as well. Yes there will always be newbie questions and you can never get rid of those but there are also some higher thinking questions that take place at the 22's and 33's.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
Subject brought up in another thread

I think splitting this forum up into a Small Stakes and Mid-Hi Stakes would be very good for both groups. The cutoff would probably be best at the Party $50+5 level...

I don't know how this is done but thought I'd throw it out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much what you are going to have is all the higher limit players say yes and the lower limit players say no. Personally, I think this forum wouldn't be split before MTT would.

[citanul]

i was pmed to find out my opinion on this topic:

as has been pointed out, this topic comes up very frequently.

as has been pointed out, basically every time it's come up, including times it's called for an open vote, it has turned out that the majority of the people would prefer that things stay non split.

personally, i believe that they should stay non split as well.

there's a big pile of reasons for this belief.

first i'd like to respond to the nincompoop who said that people forget that high stakes players don't like to help each other out. person, you are a nincompoop. you are entirely wrong.

onward.

people who think that splitting the forums would in some way remove the "crap" are entirely wrong. most of the "crap" would just be on both forums instead of one. people who ask repetitive questions would just ask them most likely in the high stakes forum primarilly because they would be seeking the "expert" players' opinions. unfortunately, that's just the way it works, as there's no permissions set, you would wind up with the bad questions being asked where the person thought they could get the best answer, not where the question most likely legitimately belongs.

people with no clue who can't beat the 5s would still post their opinions in high stakes hands. and i have no problem with them doing it now and would have no problem with them doing it then. people are here to learn. they may be stupid, and post stupid stuff, but as long as they are attempting to participate in the discussion in a productive manner, i couldn't care less.

anyways, i gots stuff to do, so i can't get in to the many more reasons that i oppose the idea of splitting the forum, those that have to do with why i think the split would be bad and those that have to do with why the split would be irrelevant and bad.

later,

citanul

[durron597]

There isn't really that much truly noobish posts on this forum like there used to be. I remember a period where we had multiple fold AA preflop threads per day, that was horrible.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
i was pmed to find out my opinion on this topic:

as has been pointed out, this topic comes up very frequently.

as has been pointed out, basically every time it's come up, including times it's called for an open vote, it has turned out that the majority of the people would prefer that things stay non split.

personally, i believe that they should stay non split as well.

there's a big pile of reasons for this belief.

first i'd like to respond to the nincompoop who said that people forget that high stakes players don't like to help each other out. person, you are a nincompoop. you are entirely wrong.

onward.

people who think that splitting the forums would in some way remove the "crap" are entirely wrong. most of the "crap" would just be on both forums instead of one. people who ask repetitive questions would just ask them most likely in the high stakes forum primarilly because they would be seeking the "expert" players' opinions. unfortunately, that's just the way it works, as there's no permissions set, you would wind up with the bad questions being asked where the person thought they could get the best answer, not where the question most likely legitimately belongs.

people with no clue who can't beat the 5s would still post their opinions in high stakes hands. and i have no problem with them doing it now and would have no problem with them doing it then. people are here to learn. they may be stupid, and post stupid stuff, but as long as they are attempting to participate in the discussion in a productive manner, i couldn't care less.

anyways, i gots stuff to do, so i can't get in to the many more reasons that i oppose the idea of splitting the forum, those that have to do with why i think the split would be bad and those that have to do with why the split would be irrelevant and bad.

later,

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is much better than mine and I agree with all of it.

[Degen]

its not a question of 'higher thinking'

the games are profoundly different at the higher levels--for example, a lot what curtains posts may not be applicable to people who play 10+1 SNG's, the same w/ 99.9% of what Gigabet posts...the same goes for what some of our 20+2 and 30+3 pro's post not being applicable to people in the 100+9's and higher

also if we have a mid/hi people like Giga (i think) will post more often, and people like Rojo won't stop posting

[gumpzilla]

The style of thinking is almost entirely the same. The way to think about bubble issues, which I think most people here would agree are the heart of SNGs, doesn't really change all that much as you move up, you just have to adjust some ranges. Or do you disagree with this? Likewise, there's more room for certain kinds of maneuvering against opponents who think in certain ways, particularly postflop, but good analysis takes that into account anyway.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
i was pmed to find out my opinion on this topic:

as has been pointed out, this topic comes up very frequently.

as has been pointed out, basically every time it's come up, including times it's called for an open vote, it has turned out that the majority of the people would prefer that things stay non split.

personally, i believe that they should stay non split as well.

there's a big pile of reasons for this belief.

first i'd like to respond to the nincompoop who said that people forget that high stakes players don't like to help each other out. person, you are a nincompoop. you are entirely wrong.

onward.

people who think that splitting the forums would in some way remove the "crap" are entirely wrong. most of the "crap" would just be on both forums instead of one. people who ask repetitive questions would just ask them most likely in the high stakes forum primarilly because they would be seeking the "expert" players' opinions. unfortunately, that's just the way it works, as there's no permissions set, you would wind up with the bad questions being asked where the person thought they could get the best answer, not where the question most likely legitimately belongs.

people with no clue who can't beat the 5s would still post their opinions in high stakes hands. and i have no problem with them doing it now and would have no problem with them doing it then. people are here to learn. they may be stupid, and post stupid stuff, but as long as they are attempting to participate in the discussion in a productive manner, i couldn't care less.

anyways, i gots stuff to do, so i can't get in to the many more reasons that i oppose the idea of splitting the forum, those that have to do with why i think the split would be bad and those that have to do with why the split would be irrelevant and bad.

later,

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this entire post. I think this should've ended the thread.

[Degen]

ya i spose its pretty similar

what i didn't realize was what cit said about n00b posts ending up in hi most of the time anyway...that would suck balls and if it is that way for other hi forums, it'd obviously be the same...and that negates the whole point of doing it. so....what jman said

[bawcerelli]

I think personally I would like it. But I'm not the one who'd have to moderate an extra forum.

Maybe it could be done on a temporary basis and see how it goes? 55's in the upper forum.

[maddog2030]

Alls I have to say is that MHNL is considered one of the best forums here and I think its no coincidence that it is split from the small stakes forum.

Also, I don't really see many of the aforementioned problems in MHNL.

[Ogre]

i vote yes

because to be honest i dont read 10+1 hands and i dont post to hear about what 10+1 players think about my hands. if the higher level players help the lower limit players now they still will if the forums were split so i dont see that being a problem

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
Alls I have to say is that MHNL is considered one of the best forums here and I think its no coincidence that it is split from the small stakes forum.

Also, I don't really see many of the aforementioned problems in MHNL.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok i had decided to lay down on this one, but if what you say about MHNL is true then i think we should DEFINATELY do it...what citanul said does not match up w/ this tho...


does anybody else have experience with any of the mid/hi forums? do people tend to post their crap in the small stakes or mid-hi sections?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

ok i had decided to lay down on this one, but if what you say about MHNL is true then i think we should DEFINATELY do it...what citanul said does not match up w/ this tho...


[/ QUOTE ]

MHNL sucks now. It used to be good.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

ok i had decided to lay down on this one, but if what you say about MHNL is true then i think we should DEFINATELY do it...what citanul said does not match up w/ this tho...


[/ QUOTE ]


MHNL sucks now. It used to be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

sucks becuz...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

ok i had decided to lay down on this one, but if what you say about MHNL is true then i think we should DEFINATELY do it...what citanul said does not match up w/ this tho...


[/ QUOTE ]


MHNL sucks now. It used to be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

sucks becuz...

[/ QUOTE ]

Because at any given moment there is a thread (usually more than one) like this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3327866&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) on the first page.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
MHNL sucks now. It used to be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

But let's stay on topic. Regardless if it sucks now (which I don't agree with but I'd say "content drop" would be more reasonable), does its suckiness stem from it being split? Would it be better if they merged it with SSNL?

I think the answer to both of these is clearly "no."

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

ok i had decided to lay down on this one, but if what you say about MHNL is true then i think we should DEFINATELY do it...what citanul said does not match up w/ this tho...


[/ QUOTE ]


MHNL sucks now. It used to be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

sucks becuz...

[/ QUOTE ]

Because at any given moment there is a thread (usually more than one) like this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3327866&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) on the first page.

[/ QUOTE ]

rofl!! nh


he starts w/ 'i called an almost 13BB raise w/ 99 and...'

[lorinda]

Would it be better if they merged it with SSNL?

In fairness, nothing in the world would become better if it merged with SSNL

Lori

[curtains]

to be quite honest, some of the players who play $11-$33's often seem stronger than some $55-$109 players. This isn't always true, but there are definitely a few guys whom I know play for lower stakes, but seem to have more of a clue than those who play for more. I honestly just don't see the point.

(Although I did see a point in somehow repeating the same thing in different words for my first two sentences, in case you didn't believe me the first time)

[45suited]

A simple idea would be for everyone to add the buy-in to the title of their posts.

But to be honest, I think some of this 'low buy in vs small buy in' talk is a bit overplayed. Some of the better posters play some of the lower buy-ins (Lorinda, Durron, Tigerite, 1C5, Ilya), while some people that post higher buy-in hands clearly could use some basic strategy help. Keep in mind that there are players who play the higher buy-ins who kinda suck and some players on the lower buy-ins might actually (gasp) have something constructive to add on occassion.

I'm going to drag my knuckles across the floor, get something to drink, and fire up another 33 now. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Edit: I just see that Curtains weighed in on this as I was typing my post. As is true 99.9% of the time, I agree with everything that he has to say.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
In fairness, nothing in the world would become better if it merged with SSNL

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. The next logical question is "why is that?"

You have a forum split for the high and low stakes NL cash games. One is (was?) considered one of the best forums here, while the other is considered one of the worst. Is it coincidence? What other factors would have caused this?

I think without another explanation it's reasonable to assume this is because of the split itself... it effectively funnels most of the good players to post in the high forum while most of the inexperienced ones post in the low limit forum. It's easy to see this is because of the tendency that as you look at higher stakes, the skill of the player goes up.

If someone has another explanation that would dominate this effect and give us the result we see... I'd like to hear it.

But as it stands, I wouldn't expect it to happen anyway. The ones who the split would hurt most are the low limit players, and they're the majority. I still think they're overestimating how much it would hurt and underestimating what kind of improved discussion could be had at the MHNL... discussions that might only happen on AIM right now because they don't want to deal with a ton of inexperienced posters. Speculation, yes, but that's all I can offer without implementing the change itself.

[BakyPT]

[ QUOTE ]
A simple idea would be for everyone to add the buy-in to the title of their posts.


[/ QUOTE ]

Im for a split or this.

Of more interest to me would be a better organized forum -- something as simple as an icon to mark threads to which I have contributed would go a ways toward making the forum easier to read.

Is there a way to mark a thread to be ignored? The "next" and "previous" buttons don't seem to work which often means a need to scroll when hunting for the next message in a thread. And, it's often not easy to find your place in the thread when you are hunting for the next message.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
I think people forget that the high limit players dont like helping each other out!

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement could not be further from the truth.

Case in point: other than the first part (making moves) and last part (Heads Up) of HoH2, I really did not learn too much that I already didn't know due to the unselfishness of the posters in this forum.

The entire "inflection points" section (the bulk of the book) was information I had already learned by reading posts in this forum - many of them contributed by folks playing at the higher levels.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
to be quite honest, some of the players who play $11-$33's often seem stronger than some $55-$109 players. This isn't always true, but there are definitely a few guys whom I know play for lower stakes, but seem to have more of a clue than those who play for more. I honestly just don't see the point.

(Although I did see a point in somehow repeating the same thing in different words for my first two sentences, in case you didn't believe me the first time)

[/ QUOTE ]

AGreed...

Furthermore, I feel like I have taken and given a ton from this forum and I have never played 1 hand on party poker. Do you see me crying for a seperate forum for PS SNGs or running off to join the PScrew or some other forum?

I'll never for the life of me understand why people get so bent out of shape about forum content. I love bad questions...they are basically the only ones I am qualified to answer. Bad strategy responses? What better launch-pad for discussion on the right way to play the hand?

What is so wrong with saying 100+9 hand or 10+1 hand in the subject? Furthermore, if i see a discussion on a 200+15 hnd, Ill maybe shy away from it, unless I think I can add something. If I do, I simply say "I play on PS, not PP, and I play lower stakes" so take it with a grain of salt.

Splitting a forum to overcome for not being able to communicate and decipher what is good/bad advice says to me that the reader needs fixing, not the structure of the forum.

pooh

[microbet]

I prefer the forum does not split.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
first i'd like to respond to the nincompoop who said that people forget that high stakes players don't like to help each other out. person, you are a nincompoop. you are entirely wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

nice. and i agree. I went on a posting spree for about a month where I answered questions from all levels. There a couple people who don't bother to answer questions, but the majority of the people who play the $55s-$215s are always very helpful.