I'm Sorry [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : I'm Sorry

Riposte

09-05-2005, 08:44 PM

I'm really sorry for making this post, but I'd really appreciate some feedback.

I am a losing player.

For the past two weeks I tried to beat $25NL full ring and 6max games on Poker Stars and Party skins. I failed.

I have lost around $50-75 trying to set farm the full ring games, and lost about $200 at the 6max games. Today alone I lost $100 at the 25NL 6max tables... four buy-ins.

Sample size is around 10k hands. Not a lot, but I know something is wrong with me. I have lost complete faith in my ability... well actually I don't believe I have any ability at all.

Set farming; I guess I can chalk it up to a bunch of bad beats... at least I hope so. I don't know how I could screw up so badly by waiting for sets.

At the 6max, for preflop standards, I was using fimbulwinter's 6max starting hand guide from his 25NL pilgrimage post. VPIP was around 45% and PFR was around 9%... totally screwed up I guess. Also probably way too loose for my level of skill postflop.

So what I am thinking about doing is really tightening up preflop for 6max. Hopefully this will make it easier on me, by not getting me into too many marginal situations that screw me up.

I am really bad at adjusting my preflop standards to table personalities... I don't know how to do it at all really. I am hoping that by having some PF guidelines to rely upon such as this, I can build my confidence back up and adjust my game from there.

So basically, what I am asking for are some comments and advice on the following 6max starting hand setup. I could only find a few similar guides in the archives, which left me with more questions than before I found them. So if you can, please take a look and tell me what you think, thanks...

EP:
Raise: AA-99, AK-AJ
Facing a raise, reraise with: AA-JJ
(fold everything else, but still apply 5/10 rule with PPs)
Limp: 88-22, Suited Connecters 76s and up

LP:
Without limpers raise: AA-22, AK-A8, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs,
JTs, Axs, Kxs, 76s+
With limpers raise: AA-88, AK-AJ
Facing a raise, reraise with: AA-JJ
(fold everything else, but apply 5/10 rule with PPs)
Limp: Any two offsuit broadways, J9o-86o

BB:
Raise: AA-JJ, AK-AQ
Against a raise, reraise with: AA-JJ
(fold everything else and apply 5/10 rule)

SB:
Raise: AA-JJ, AK-AQ
Against a raise, reraise with: AA-JJ
(fold everything else and apply 5/10 rule)
Limp: TT-22, Axs, KQs-76s

Thanks guys...

RiverFenix

09-05-2005, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

EP:
Raise: AA-99, AK-AJ
Facing a raise, reraise with: AA-QQ
(fold everything else, but still apply 5/10 rule with PPs)
Limp: 88-22, Suited Connecters 9Ts and up

LP:
Without limpers raise: AA-44, AK-AT, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs,
JTs, Axs, Kxs, 76s+ (on occasion)
With limpers raise: AA-88, AK-AJ
Facing a raise, reraise with: AA-QQ
(fold everything else, but apply 5/10 rule with PPs)
Limp: Any two offsuit broadways

BB:
Raise: AA-TT, AK-AQ
Against a raise, reraise with: AA-QQ
(fold everything else and apply 5/10 rule)

SB:
Raise: AA-JJ, AK-AQ
Against a raise, reraise with: AA-QQ
(fold everything else and apply 5/10 rule)
Limp: TT-22, Axs, KQs-65s

[/ QUOTE ]

45%VPIP is way to high when you arent sure how to play post flop. How many tables are you playing?

jzpiano14

09-05-2005, 08:57 PM

Play only one table then gradually add when you start winning at one. With this as your starting hand chart your VPIP shouldn't be at 45% there is no way. Start posting hands to work on your post flop play. Maybe post some #'s too if you have PT.

ajmargarine

09-05-2005, 08:58 PM

I feel for you bud. You're here at 2+2 which gives you an advantage over many of the players you play against, so that's a good thing. Others may disagree, but I am in the camp that says you should be able to beat full ring first before trying to play 6-max. I would consider playing tight preflop full ring first and having some success there, and growing and learning there, before attacking 6-max. JMO.

Salerosa

09-05-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Others may disagree, but I am in the camp that says you should be able to beat full ring first before trying to play 6-max. I would consider playing tight preflop full ring first and having some success there, and growing and learning there, before attacking 6-max. JMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I enjoy 6-max more, find it more profitable, and play it almost exclusively online now. I also completely agree with this advice.

Riposte

09-05-2005, 09:04 PM

This may be a bad beat post (I'm not entirely sure anymore), so you may want to skip over this. I hope it can give a glimpse into my game... if anyone wants to offer any advice it would be greatly appreciated.

These were my biggest losers today.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($18.12)
BB ($25.55)
UTG ($21.65)
MP ($37.32)
CO ($25.55)
Button ($37.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $2.9, 1 fold, MP folds, CO raises to $8, Hero calls $5.

Flop: ($16.50) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, CO raises to $15, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $36.50

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($11.28)
BB ($28.50)
UTG ($11.39)
Hero ($19.17)
Button ($16.26)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, Button raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.75.

Flop: ($8.35) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Button calls $12.26 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $25.61

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($27.50)
UTG ($9.85)
Hero ($24.30)
Button ($27.36)
SB ($28.68)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, Button raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $7, Button calls $25.11 (All-In), Hero calls $17.30 (All-In).

Flop: ($52.01) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($52.01) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($52.01) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $52.01

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($0.54)
MP ($5.25)
Button ($35.12)
Hero ($39.55)
BB ($32.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, Button calls $0.25, Hero (poster) raises to $1.15, BB raises to $2, Button folds, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($4.75) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4.5, BB raises to $9, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $18.25

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($3.36)
SB ($35.97)
Hero ($33.05)
UTG ($39.10)
MP ($25.53)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.75) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.5, Button folds, SB calls $1.75.

Turn: ($5.75) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($5.75) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero calls $3.

Final Pot: $11.75

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($11.53)
UTG ($24.65)
MP ($11.39)
Hero ($22.92)
SB ($16.51)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $0.44, Hero raises to $3.5, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $3.06.

Turn: ($8) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($8) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $8

Riposte

09-05-2005, 09:05 PM

One and two tabling. Sometimes one, sometimes two.

Bukem_

09-05-2005, 09:15 PM

THis is my opinion, but you should learn poker in this order:

Full ring limit games, 6 max Limit games, Full ring NL, 6 max LImit NL.

YOu have a humongous leak playing strong hands at those 6max games- You can't invest huge amounts of your stack with an overpair, and then fold them.

wdeadwyler

09-05-2005, 09:24 PM

Next time only post one or two hands in a post. All six of those are hard to respond. Depending on reads id prob toss that qq in your first hand, when someone 3bets your reraise and you have qq, chances are you are waaaay behind.

ajmargarine

09-05-2005, 09:27 PM

Hand #1 - You raise a PFR with QQ, which is good. If he just calls you, there's a good chance that your queens are the best hand. If he reraises you, there is a very good chance he has KK/AA and has you beat. Considering he reraised you here, folding preflop to his reraise *might* be your best play. Better than just calling, given stack sizes, would be to push all-in when he reraises you.

Hand #2 - No way should you be folding that hand for $7 more. Call it and see a showdown. You're behind sometimes, but you are ahead enough to make it worth a call.

Hand #3 - KK hand. Nicely played, bad break if you lost it. That happens. Huge favorites lose. That's poker.

Hand #4 - AQo hand is a tricky hand. You'll get varied opinions on whether to just complete the SB with that hand or not. I would advise until you get better, and get more confident in your post-flop ability, to just limp from the blinds with hands like these.

Hand #5 - T2 hand. You played it fine on the flop. Bad break that you got counterfeited with that 7. Call on the end is questionable, but is defensable.

Hand #6 - A6 hand. Another bad break. No need to overbet the flop so much. A PSR is fine there, so make it $2.xx. I would probably bet 3/4 pot on the turn also and then check behind the river. A turn bet maybe gets villian to lay a better hand than yours down if he is seeing ghosts.

pmuir10

09-05-2005, 09:33 PM

as mentioned before your postflop play is not good enough for someone plaing 45% VPIP

tryp laying 20%.. less stick situations

IbrakeFORrivers

09-05-2005, 09:48 PM

You can make arguments about playing whatever hands whenever. Sure, it's best if you play the ABC hands, but that can become predictable. THe expert can play the crap hands well vs. the right players. More importantly, it's all about knowing when to play what hands against who.

I think in poker, (it's easier said then done) you HAVE TO HAVE the following mentality:

You're NOT GOING to win big. If you play properly, you most likely, will be folding 80-90% of your hands, and about 60-70% of your hands when somewhat committed. The key is risk vs. reward. A HUGE mistake is expecting to come into the table, bang out some nut hands, and win huge double-ups vs. a series of fish... Trust me, the whole table is not 100% comprised of fish...

LEARN TO FOLD!!!!! This is the MOST IMPORTANT thing!!!! THIS Is what caused me to become a winner. But again, NOT A BIG WINNER... I win like 1/5th of my buy-in per session on average, and expect no more. Sometimes, the fish come, and that helps me get more... Sometimes I do double up... But i always view this as LUCKY... The 1/5th, 1/6th and even 1/16th of my buy-in is what i EXPECT. You should not be busting out. Don't be afraid to lose some of your buy-in as opposed to going all-in. DO NOT BE THE BULLYING TYPE!!!! Most likely ppl with better hands are waiting on this and will pounce with a killer check-raise. Eventually if you constantly "DON'T BELIEVE" you will get caught and bought.

Do not always try to have an ultra-aggressive image. Conversely, do not be afraid to FRONT an ultra-aggressive image by losing a few hands. (If playing $25 party, lose like $4-5 in one hand every now and then on showdown). Mix it up. Trust me, losing a little money in the long run PAYS HUGELY.. IT DOES SET UP for some huge pots later on... Seems discouraging when you call down and lose a $5-$10 pot, but it works if you do it the right way and at the right time...

BUT I RE-EMPHASIZE THIS... this has been the KEY to my game improving DRAMATICALLY... KEEP YOUR PRIDE CHECKED... LEAVE YOUR EGO AWAY FROM THE TABLE... Let others get an inflated ego... be patient and pounce when appropriate. FOLDING IS HUGE....

THis doesn't mean you can't bluff. You can. Once you get in the proper mindset, you'll sense like a tiger when to bluff. Even with 4 ppl in the hand still, you will be able to sense this...

BE PATIENT!!! Folding (laying down is the proper connotation i believe) is a WEAPON bbelieve it or not... it will help you lose less money. TRUST ME!!! People might even think you are weak and bet into you when you have a monster later on... You will become the pro suckering out a sucker. You will not be the sucker anymore.

Start tight as hell, and then you will eventually sense when you can start mixing it up at a table...

Just play and play... you'll get the feel of it...

Don't give up...

xorbie

09-05-2005, 11:26 PM

Here's my recommendations. Toss the list for PF stuff. Play just about nothing at all in any position except CO and the button for a while. Limp with pairs, except raise AA-JJ and AK whenever you are UTG or UTG+2. Limp AQ, AJs.

The thing with 6 max is that if you are losing money it means are you are probably making the wrong decisions in big pots. The easiest way to do that is playing sketchy hands OOP when you don't have a good feel for the game. Don't let that happen.

Next, raise almost anything in CO or button when folded to you. All PP, all SC, any two face cards, any Axs. If you hit anything at all on the flop, bet 3/4-pot, whatever you are comfortable with.

Assuming they just call the flop, which is what usually happens, don't put any more money in without a good hand. Checking the turn is almost always correct, so do that a lot unless you see someone who is calling you down and you have the goods (TPTK+). Once you raise enough and bet enough flops with OESD, flushdraw, gutshot + overs, you will get people to call you down.

The purpose of this strategy is to exploit the fact that people play very passively and loosely in small pots and don't understand position. If you raise PF with A4/images/graemlins/spade.gif and don't flop anything, just check it down. You're hand will often be good, and don't worry too much about them bluffing you with KQo, it almost never happens. If they checkraise you and you have not much, just fold, no biggy. Again, most players will not adjust to your game correctly and will either call or fold the flop.

Once the pot gets bigger (i.e. turn and river), you are now exploiting the fact that your opponents are not paying close enough attention to notice that you don't put money in without the goods. Play the turn and river agressively with sets, two pair, AA and so forth and you will get paid off because people just see you betting crap and assuming you'll do it recklessly.

Marlow

09-05-2005, 11:48 PM

I'll try and give some specifics for 6max. Everyone who tells you that 45% is too high is completely on the $. You're gonna get crushed playing that many hands unless you are a top NL player. I only play 6max, and my VPIP is around 25 or so. And even at 25, I'm playing a lot of marginal stuff that I won't play without good reads on my opponents. Since you say you can't quite read your opponents yet, I suggest getting down to about 18% VPIP. As you win, reintroduce a few other hands.

Also, at the level you are at, you can win with ABC poker. You gain very little by being tricky. By and large, your opponents aren't good enough to trick.

[ QUOTE ]
EP:
Raise: AA-99, AK-AJ
Facing a raise, reraise with: AA-JJ
(fold everything else, but still apply 5/10 rule with PPs)
Limp: 88-22, Suited Connecters 76s and up

[/ QUOTE ]

Remove AJ (for raising) and suited connectors up to QJ (for limping). Since it's 6max as well as NL, those smaller suited connectors are not worth as much.

[ QUOTE ]

LP:
Without limpers raise: AA-22, AK-A8, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs,
JTs, Axs, Kxs, 76s+
With limpers raise: AA-88, AK-AJ
Facing a raise, reraise with: AA-JJ
(fold everything else, but apply 5/10 rule with PPs)
Limp: Any two offsuit broadways, J9o-86o

[/ QUOTE ]

These are disasterous to raise with: Axs, Kxs, 76s+. Also, 22-77 is quite bad, but less so. Also, I almost never play any ace lower then AT without very good reason. Allowing yourself to flop an ace with a bad kicker is one huge NL leak.

I'm not crazy about reraising with JJ unless you are against a very loose and aggressive player. Many players will tells you the same about QQ. I'm on the fence about it.

Don't bother limping in LP unless you've got a pair. If you come in, come in for a raise.

[ QUOTE ]

BB:
Raise: AA-JJ, AK-AQ
Against a raise, reraise with: AA-JJ
(fold everything else and apply 5/10 rule)

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks fine.

[ QUOTE ]

SB:
Raise: AA-JJ, AK-AQ
Against a raise, reraise with: AA-JJ
(fold everything else and apply 5/10 rule)
Limp: TT-22, Axs, KQs-76s

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks Ok to me aside from the JJ.

Tighten up and watch your opponents. Don't try and figure out everything. Just focus on how much they play, and then try and make a few small adjustments.

gl2u

Marlow

Riposte

09-05-2005, 11:56 PM

Thanks a lot for the comments guys... much appreciated.

tommo

09-05-2005, 11:58 PM

DaveduFresne

09-06-2005, 02:07 AM

Excellent post. I nominate this post for small stakes post of the month.