People I talk to think this is an easy laydown? [Archive]

Fryguy

09-05-2005, 07:27 PM

I'll put the LC part at the top of the post. 3rd time this session (20 minutes so far) that I've lost with a full house. Getting annoying that my big downswing is going to extend further than 4000 hands it seems.

Talked to a couple of people (non 2+2) and they all thougth it was an easy laydown.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

hizo1

09-05-2005, 07:31 PM

I don't think this is an easy lay down at this limit. What's your read on villain?

chiachu

09-05-2005, 07:31 PM

id just call the river raise.

im not seeing the easy lay down though

numeri

09-05-2005, 07:32 PM

Usually, a flop call and turn raise by the PFR is bad news for you. On the turn, what hand range do you put CO on? Unless you think he'd raise this turn with AK or 99, you're not good here very often. You might split with KT-JT if CO is aggressive pre-flop. If anything, call the turn and check/call the river. The A most likely did not help you.

moodifier

09-05-2005, 07:33 PM

The river is over-played massively. At what point do your ppl think this is an easy lay down? I do not understand the question.

numeri

09-05-2005, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
id just call the river raise.

im not seeing the easy lay down though

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think the A helps us often enough to bet/call here?

BatsShadow

09-05-2005, 07:40 PM

I do.

If I was villain, I could VERY easily play this hand the same way (until the river) with JJ or KK.

Once he raises the A on the river, I think you just call though. I would expect to win this sometimes, but lose most of the time.

09-05-2005, 07:41 PM

Grunch:

Not being sarcastic, but I'm missing something here. Why does someone think this is an easy laydown? Is it because of the threat of quads? I don't think I would ever lay this hand down.

I would have re-raised the turn, despite the quad threat. I don't think he automatically has a Queen in his hand, and your hand is very strong. His preflop raise could have been any number of hands that did not include a Queen. I like your other plays.

chiachu

09-05-2005, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
id just call the river raise.

im not seeing the easy lay down though

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think the A helps us often enough to bet/call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

When i first posted, i thought yes.
Now after thinking about it some more, i think its alot closer then i first thought.
I still think theres a better chance that he has KK/JJ/Tx than AA/Qx... but im not sure if enough to justify a bet.

Mr. Zero

09-05-2005, 07:51 PM

Laydown?

I think I probably 3 bet the turn. He caps, I plan on calling the river UI.

Once the Ace hits, I think I play the river the same. Unless I have some ultra specific read, no way I'm giving him credit for quads/AA.

numeri

09-05-2005, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I do.

If I was villain, I could VERY easily play this hand the same way (until the river) with JJ or KK.

Once he raises the A on the river, I think you just call though. I would expect to win this sometimes, but lose most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that I look at it, JJ and KK could definitely play it this way. (As well as the obvious KQ, AQ, AA, maybe some other T.) A bet/call seems fine on the river.

My only concern is that the PFR, flop call, and turn raise often screams of a monster. I think we'll see a Q here most of the time, but I may just be skewing my thought process by the river action.

istewart

09-05-2005, 07:56 PM

I think check/raising the river and calling a 3-bet might be a better river line. I would also fold preflop.

chiachu

09-05-2005, 08:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think check/raising the river and calling a 3-bet might be a better river line. I would also fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont really understand this line. What would villian bet with on the river that we can beat?

BatsShadow

09-05-2005, 08:01 PM

You may be right about the raise,call,raise slowplay, but I definitely could see the guy doing the same thing with the JJ/KK.

The thought process is: Look, that QQ is scary, I'll just call. Oh, crap! Three Qs on board means no one has one, now I'm almost sure my hand is good!

I really think we are behind on the turn, but suckout a fair amount of times with this river Ace.

...Then again, I assume poster lost because of both the title and just the fact that he posted it.

BatsShadow

09-05-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would also fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must be a maniac. I raise AT from any position at this limit.

chiachu

09-05-2005, 08:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]

My only concern is that the PFR, flop call, and turn raise often screams of a monster. I think we'll see a Q here most of the time, but I may just be skewing my thought process by the river action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we see a worse hand here most (more than 50%) of the time.
But since we stand to lose 2 bets to a better hand, and only gain 1 from a worse hand...
im not sure if we see a worse hand more than ~66% of the time, but i think we do by a little.

istewart

09-05-2005, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think check/raising the river and calling a 3-bet might be a better river line. I would also fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont really understand this line. What would villian bet with on the river that we can beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me look at it again. I think check/raising-calling a 3-bet is certainly better than bet/3-betting but probably not optimal.

Once he raises the turn, I think his range is AA, KK, JJ, TT, AT, KT, AQ, KQ, QT (may or may not be raised preflop), and QJ.

On the river...

AA (1) We're behind.
KK (6) We're ahead.
JJ (6) We're ahead.
TT (1) We're ahead.
AT (4) Tie.
KT (8, but discounted to 2 -- he might not raise preflop) We're ahead.
QT (2) We're behind.
QJ (4) We're behind.
KQ (4) We're behind.
AQ (2) We're behind.

Behind: 13
Tie: 4
Ahead: 15

Bet/calling the river might be good after all. Once he raises an ace on the river you're not in great shape.

EDIT: I didn't discount QT/QJ enough. Most players do not raise these hands preflop. Thus, we're behind even less on the river. Still, though, bet/calling is probably the best line.

Fryguy

09-05-2005, 08:36 PM

I got shown AA and was the 3rd time in a 30 minute session that I showed down a FH and lost.

Man what a bad streak

yellowjack

09-05-2005, 08:40 PM

Fryguy,

I think the only mistake in this hand is 3-betting the river. Other than that it looks alright (the open-limp is debatable, but it is ok at loose tables).

hemstock

09-05-2005, 08:40 PM

You're only beaten by a Queen (not likely) or Aces (also not likely since we know where the other 2 are) = not an easy laydown

Nfinity

09-05-2005, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I got shown AA and was the 3rd time in a 30 minute session that I showed down a FH and lost.

Man what a bad streak

[/ QUOTE ]

In the future, try not telling your buddies that you lost the hand before describing it. Hindsight is always an easy fold to the unwashed masses.

F**K a Result.

SCfuji

09-05-2005, 09:10 PM

1) your buddies suck big fat donkey cock at poker
2) check call the turn. there are still some hands other than ones that contain a Q that beat your hand, plus if he has a ten its a chop anyways.
3) after i check call the turn i would most likely check raise the river and call a 3-bet. bet/calling the river after check/calling the turn might be slightly better but against a typical .5/1 player i think you get more out by getting 3 bets on the river without giving the villain the option of capping.

Russ McGinley

09-05-2005, 09:10 PM

(grunch)

I hate this hand in EP.

That being said, what hands do you *beat* here? He raised on the turn when the third queen hit, okay, maybe he's got a ten and thinks its going to be a chop. Now he's continuing the aggression on the river when an ace hits. I don't mind the bet on the river when you hit your ace, but I think the 3-bet is chip spewing.

Hojglad

09-05-2005, 09:22 PM

I check-call the river. He raises with nothing we beat.

bottomset

09-05-2005, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll put the LC part at the top of the post. 3rd time this session (20 minutes so far) that I've lost with a full house. Getting annoying that my big downswing is going to extend further than 4000 hands it seems.

[/ QUOTE ]

bad play causes more downswings than variance, its doubtful you are playing Agame poker right now.

I don't really get this flop lead

I think the turn is a check/call, river a c/r call or bet/call not sure.

Hojglad

09-05-2005, 09:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
river a c/r call or bet/call not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]
What hand are we up against here that we are beating when they raise the river? I think when we are raised on the river here, at the very best, we are splitting.

numeri

09-05-2005, 10:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bad play causes more downswings than variance, its doubtful you are playing Agame poker right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just wanted to quote this because it is so very very true.

LoaferGee12

09-05-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Laydown?

I think I probably 3 bet the turn. He caps, I plan on calling the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spew.

irishpint

09-05-2005, 10:08 PM

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
I check-call the river. He raises with nothing we beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

so wrong it's not even funny.

irishpint

09-05-2005, 10:10 PM

I think this is a raise or fold PF, i'm not a fan of the limp. Every street was played correctly, until the river. When he raises I'd just call because at that point we're usually going for a split. However folding to his river raise or folding in general would be very bad, especially with no read on villian.

Hojglad

09-05-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check-call the river. He raises with nothing we beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

so wrong it's not even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, go ahead. Bet the river. When he raises, at best, you chop and lose more money to the rake.

irishpint

09-05-2005, 10:18 PM

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
I check-call the river. He raises with nothing we beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

so wrong it's not even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, go ahead. Bet the river. When he raises, at best, you chop and lose more money to the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]\

dude, like i said you're so wrong it isn't even funny. without a read these fools and their pocket fives think they have a the winning hand. I dont 3bet when we're raised but I dont fold or c/c either.

davelin

09-05-2005, 10:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check-call the river. He raises with nothing we beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

so wrong it's not even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, go ahead. Bet the river. When he raises, at best, you chop and lose more money to the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine but we don't know we're going to get raised here when we make our river decision. Get value against someone with a T or JJ/KK here.

Hojglad

09-05-2005, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check-call the river. He raises with nothing we beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

so wrong it's not even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, go ahead. Bet the river. When he raises, at best, you chop and lose more money to the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]\

dude, like i said you're so wrong it isn't even funny. without a read these fools and their pocket fives think they have a the winning hand. I dont 3bet when we're raised but I dont fold or c/c either.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you honestly think the CO has 55 here? Put the cutoff on a reasonable range of hands. Narrow these hands down by the way he plays the flop and the turn. Do you still think you are betting for value? Do you really expect to win the pot when he raises the river? I'm not advocating a fold, obviously. I just don't think that a bet here has much value. That said, it probably doesn't matter too much either way. Trips on the board isn't a situation that comes up very often.

yecul

09-05-2005, 10:40 PM

I don't understand the easy laydown. I wouldn't three-bet the river though.

Redd

09-05-2005, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn is a check/call

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? He's checking behind AK/AJ/99 here alot.

NobodysFreak

09-05-2005, 11:39 PM

I'm not laying this down. I might not 3-bet the river, but I'm not laying it down.

Eeegah

09-05-2005, 11:48 PM

Hm, I'm trying to think of an instance where I'd willingly lay down a boat and I plum can't think of any. Hell the villain could flip over his cards and I think I'd call out of spite.

Is folding a boat ever correct?

Hojglad

09-05-2005, 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hm, I'm trying to think of an instance where I'd willingly lay down a boat and I plum can't think of any. Hell the villain could flip over his cards and I think I'd call out of spite.

Is folding a boat ever correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
There have been times when I've had a boat counterfeited by the board and I knew I was beat. As an example: I folded a boat at the Bellagio in a 4/8 game during the 2p2 vegas trip this summer. I had 33 and the flop came JJ3. The turn was a 6. Some passive dude bets at it, I raise. He calls. The river was another 6. He bets again, I muck face-up. He tables K6o for the runner runner boat. I knew I was beat. I folded. It didn't matter what the odds were. It was so obvious that he had a 6 that I couldn't call profitably. That said, if you called in every situation where this happened, it would have no substantial effect on your winrate. So, is folding a boat EVER correct? Yes, sometimes it is. Does it matter in the long run if you fold or call? No.

SCfuji

09-06-2005, 12:00 AM

more than one bet needs to go into this river.

SomethingClever

09-06-2005, 12:01 AM

Seems like a pretty weak open limp. I'd raise or fold ATo. Since you're out of position, just muck it.

Not sure about the flop bet either. I would check and see where the bet comes from and who folds. Then either checkraise or call and see what the turn brings.

I play the river the same. Too bad, he had AA. Happens.