Trying to break away from 'the rules'

[Yeti]

10/20 PL. HU with an unknown, we've been playing 5 hands or whatever.

I have JJ. He completes, I make it 40 more, he makes it 115 more, I call.

AsJx2s

I am never ever looking to fold here, in fact, I'm just worrying about how to get all the chips in the middle.

In the actual hand, he bets $55, I made it $325 and he called.

1800gambler says 'the hand is now over. so so over'.

Whilst I don't completely agree that I shouldn't put another dollar in, I really need to check this turn behind and perhaps call a smallish river bet/fold to a huge one.

In actuality, he checks the blank turn, I do a hefty bet, he moves in and I call. I lose obviously.

I just feel I need to break away from the 'don't look to fold sets w/ 100xbb rule' and start thinking a lot more about my opponents range of hands and the like.

I feel my game has got so sloppy.

Discuss.

[Rocaix]

If you really can narrow his range down that much then yeah maybe you can find a fold. However against an unknown HU in the Party 10/20 game, I don't think I can ever fold in that spot. It's too easy for him to have AJ, 22, AK, pair + flush draw or something completely off the wall, especially considering it's a blind battle. Maybe with more information about what his limp-reraises mean or his level of aggression and his lines with various hands, you might be able to put him on exactly AA, the way the hand played out.

But with so little information HU, I think almost everyone goes broke here on a blank turn. There's something to be said about thinking outside the box, but in this case I think the play is very standard given what is known.

[ML4L]

Hey Yeti,

[ QUOTE ]
the 'don't look to fold sets w/ 100xbb rule'

[/ QUOTE ]

Which page of the rulebook is this on? I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen it in my copy...

ML4L

[chuddo]

if you are looking to find a fold here, would you care to play me heads up for your entire bankroll?

really though:
you have set under set: easy to go broke.
you are heads up with a monster: easy to go broke.
you aren't disgustingly deep: easy to go broke.

and all this against an unknown. you were dealt a doomed hand, it sucks.

if you are not going broke heads-up here, then you are not going to be coming close to maximizing your gains.

[flawless_victory]

this go broke with bottom set and 100BB has always been BS for me.
however this is HU... that is just a brutal colddecking. i know you hate to pay it off, bc he played it soooo effing bad, but dont sweat it too much.

[autobet]

It's also a battle of the blinds.

The only thing that can save you is the preflop backraise. But that could be AK, so...

[Yeti]

Just to clarify, we are HU on our own table, not that it matters much.

And if preflop he raises I reraise he calls I'll happily go bust.

Or if he just limps and calls my raise I'll happily get the rest in.

But this limp reraise, it stinks of AA and I feel like a schmuck for paying off.

[autobet]

The $55 flop bet also smells. Either he is afraid of the A or wants you to call. When he calls your large raise, he most likely has at least a good ace...but he would have bet more on the flop with AK, AQ.

Either way this is the toughest of laydowns, especially heads up.

[captZEEbo1]

If you are gonna fold here postflop, you definitely should just go ahead with your "read" of "wreaking" of AA preflop, and fold preflop. Otherwise, are you seeing a flop with 22 here also (for set value). I mean, he easily has Ax (not even AK)...folding here would be the dumbest move in poker.

[1800GAMBLER]

P(Ax) * P(complete-reraise with AK) * P(bets $55 with AK) < 50%.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are gonna fold here postflop, you definitely should just go ahead with your "read" of "wreaking" of AA preflop, and fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise, are you seeing a flop with 22 here also (for set value).

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course?

[Rounder9999]

In this situation I'm not laying this hand down on the flop or on the turn ever. I wouldn't worry if you consider this sloppy, you're fine.

[BobboFitos]

observe

formulate

analyze

apply

repeat

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Yeti,

[ QUOTE ]
the 'don't look to fold sets w/ 100xbb rule'

[/ QUOTE ]

Which page of the rulebook is this on? I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen it in my copy...

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry mike it's on my copy, you're welcome to borrow it!

but i assyre you i need it back at somepoint, im lost w/p it

[Matt Flynn]

He gets my money.

[Ulysses]

I get it all in on this hand and don't give it a second thought if he has AA.

[mikech]

I would insta-fold this without much thought at all. You do not make money in Texas Hold'em by putting your whole stack in with the second-nuts and no redraws. I love playing against guys who are always like "haha, I have middle set, I will call." Easy money. Guys who know how to make a solid fold here are much tougher opponents.

[muzungu]

yeti-

One thing i have never understood is why people describe these situations as a choice between "getting away from it" and "going broke". If you have a big hand and villain is doing all sorts of fancy play shenanigans, it is perfectly ok to let him keep the lead in the hand. A lot of these are way ahead/way behind situations, so feel free to call him all the way down, or check behind the turn, or whatever is gonna manage the pot to your liking. Some times he will win, sometimes you will win, but you have more choices than you are admitting.

To put it another way: your goal is to maximise ($I get when i win * % of the time I win) - ($ he gets when I lose * % of the time I lose). So, make some reads in terms of his hand range, plug them into the formula, and go from there.

As for this hand, I am gonna go broke, but perhaps not in the way you did.

-muz

[Lucky]

You're gonna go broke with this hand most times, no doubt. As Muz said you can slow way down, just call, etc.

Bottom line, as long as you're not playing fearful, and always seeing monsters, you can trust your gut when you think you're behind in set under set situation. With hand like this one, don't let your 'manhood' or "Twoplustwo reputation' force you to go against your read.

Tonight for example, I won two big pots flush over flush. The stacks were about 125bb in both situations. I bet huge on end and both times with nut flush, opponents took much time, one even commenting "oh bleep, here you go!" Now obviously they shouldnt have been drawing to small flushes, but finding themselves in those circumstances, they could have laid it down to the all in bet on end and didn't.

[ QUOTE ]
You do not make money in OMAHA by putting your whole stack in with the second-nuts and no redraws.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP =D

Get it all in however you can here, and curse your bad luck if he has AA, rebuy and carry on.

[KaneKungFu123]

He played it super strange. What does he put you on?

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
I would insta-fold this without much thought at all. You do not make money in Texas Hold'em by putting your whole stack in with the second-nuts and no redraws. I love playing against guys who are always like "haha, I have middle set, I will call." Easy money. Guys who know how to make a solid fold here are much tougher opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

vnh

[scdavis0]

Some percentage of the time you are gonna make quads and scoop the whole freakin pot.

[mgsimpleton]

man you got middle set! even if you were playing live and he turned his cards face up you can't fold, right?

that being said he basically did turn his cards face up, like you said. his bet of 55 then calling a huge check raise... 1/4 pot for weird/bad players (like this guy might very well be, it would seem) is either bad hand or monster... so then when he goes further i guess it's a monster.

now while it is true that given the board, AK is also a monster heads up, i for some reason very very rarely seen it played this way, where a small percentage of the pot is bet originally. it's almost as if people thing AK can't beat a flush but a set can, or something. so to be honest, if you had a read (and i think he did his part to send the neon flashing memo) i think you can let it go/keep pot small.

i think it's naive and silly to just make sweeping statements like "i'm never folding jjj in this spot, if he has AAA so be it."

[mgsimpleton]

remind me which thread you are quoting el d from again? (words of wisdom, they are, indeed)

[thatpfunk]

The 718th example of why not to post results.

[AZK]

the oesfd vs a made straight. KQ vs 98 on a JT7 twotone board, all in for deep money. Something to that extent.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
The 718th example of why not to post results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I doubt there's ever been a HU hand posted in the history of this forum where Hero simply got his money in with the second nuts and won.

[anduril]

[ QUOTE ]
man you got middle set! even if you were playing live and he turned his cards face up you can't fold, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you misused this expression, but I'm pretty sure if on the flop he showed me that I had 1 out would fold.

[IHateCats]

I know exactly how you feel on this one. While participating in this forum has undoubtably made me a better player and following 'the rules' is part of that, there are times, especially on a hand with a board like that and that developed the way that this one did where that little voice in the back of your head is screaming at you that you are beat in spite of the fact you are HU, with the 2nd nuts against a complete unknown. I don't know if it's just betting patterns or something about the timing of your opponents bet but there are times when you just KNOW you're beat even online with a monster like this. The hundreds of thousands of hands a veteran 10/20 NL player has played have hammered out those instincts for a reason. Where the problem lies if you're like me, you aren't always right. Probably an equal # of times that I've called because of 'the rules' against an unknown when my gut was screaming I'm beat and my gut was right, there's an equal # of times they turn over some top pair lame kicker for 100+BB that I have absolutely crushed.

My only suggestion is this, listen to your gut feeling against known players where your instincts have more to go on and only occasionally against a noob, remember, no one knows you're laying down 2nd nuts here but you. It's amazing how empowering losing the minimum possible on a monster 2nd best hand can be. In spite of whatever insticts I have though, HU against an unknown I'm going broke here, HU is the reason I couldn't get away from this, too many players play HU so badly that I'm sure I'd go broke here like most everyone else posting and go give the cat a good kicking, feeling like a fool for not following my instincts but my HU instincts aren't what they need to be to make this monster laydown and be correct enough of the time. If it makes you feel better, go watch Prahlad go broke HU with his AAAKK fh vs Jesus's quads for a couple of hundred K a few more times.

[Niwa]

you would need one hell of a read to ever lay this down HU.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
If it makes you feel better, go watch Prahlad go broke HU with his AAAKK fh vs Jesus's quads for a couple of hundred K a few more times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, he didn't go broke on this hand. He actually just called and everyone was in shock. That's also a completely different situation than this.

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]


Uh, he didn't go broke on this hand. He actually just called and everyone was in shock. That's also a completely different situation than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he ever raise?

[mgsimpleton]

he would be stupid to raise but not so stupid to value bet once he rivered the second nuts (after having an inferior second nuts the whole way) and the fact that he just check called took a hell of a read.

I had this exact(well almost) same thing happen. Had JJ made a huge raise preflop and SB called. Flop came AJ7o and he checked. I went all in and he called. I didn't think about it for a second afterward. My situation was a tad different as it was in the money at a tournament, but none the less if it was my cash games, I'd do the same unless I was rediculously deep stacked and he was too.

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
I had this exact(well almost) same thing happen. Had JJ made a huge raise preflop and SB called. Flop came AJ7o and he checked. I went all in and he called. I didn't think about it for a second afterward. My situation was a tad different as it was in the money at a tournament, but none the less if it was my cash games, I'd do the same unless I was rediculously deep stacked and he was too.

[/ QUOTE ]

You people really need to stop whiffing your 2 card quad draw.

Heads up, 2nd set, no straight or flush? Yeah, no way can you fold this, even with the preflop action.

D

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
i think it's naive and silly to just make sweeping statements like "i'm never folding jjj in this spot, if he has AAA so be it."

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had unknown guys show me stuff like 9Ts in these spots HU enough times for me to become this naive and silly.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
He gets my money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here, because I have always followed Doyle's advice about not getting away from sets in raised pots. For him to beat you in this hand a parlay had to occur. He had to have AA and you both had to flop a set. That will happen so rarely when the preflop raiser/reraiser flops a set and you do too that I am just going to lose here everytime. I've had plenty of people with AK, top pair weak kick, bottom set and even KK pay me off on flops like that. If set over set is happening so often to you in nl then maybe you are getting colddecked /images/graemlins/blush.gif. There is a way to reduce set over set as rare as it is - don't play 22-55 in early/middle positions. On a tight table full of set farmers that is my default line, usually followed by switching tables.

[Matt Flynn]

You all do realize that you should be betting $55 into those pots a lot? Your opponents will roll over like donuts in front of Ethiopians at a comedy club.

I don't follow. Why is making a 1/5 pot bet a good thing? Please explain.

D

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
remind me which thread you are quoting el d from again? (words of wisdom, they are, indeed)

[/ QUOTE ]
cero takes diablo seriously. haha. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=3188709&F orum=,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=4&Limi t=25&Main=3184272&Search=true&where=&Name=122&date range=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=#Post3188709)

[Matt Flynn]

because it gets entire message boards to fold second set.

lol - sorry, a little slow on the uptake here.

D

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]

Guys who know how to make a solid fold here are much tougher opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if YOU know they will make those folds.

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]

HU against an unknown I'm going broke here, HU is the reason I couldn't get away from this

[/ QUOTE ]

[autobet]

Even with the backraise and $55 flop bet, we're all going broke in this spot.