Hypothetical Situation -- Calling with Suited Connectors

To make this post short here are my two questions:

1. Assuming no one pays attention to your play, and especially the details of what cards you play preflop and how, is it better to call a standard raise (3x-4xBB) with suited connectors or fold them? Obviously this depends on the situation, so consider when you call a standard raise preflop with a PP (which for me is almost always). Is there a parallel with suited connectors?

2. How valid is it to say that your opponents at low limits (NL25/NL50) do not pay attention to what cards you play and how you play them?

[brian94709]

I never call a standard raise with a small SC unless many other people have already called the raise before me.
This almost never happens.
If I thought it was a blind steal raise, I'd be slightly more inclined to call, but barely.

So is "sometimes call a raise with suited connectors" a small leak in people's games? Seems like a lot of people do it, there must be a reason...

[brian94709]

I guess it makes more sense against a weak raiser, so that you'll have good fold equity on a strong draw.

[GoCubsGo]

[ QUOTE ]
I never call a standard raise with a small SC unless many other people have already called the raise before me.
This almost never happens.
If I thought it was a blind steal raise, I'd be slightly more inclined to call, but barely.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got it all wrong. There's no reason to call a weak raise with SC's because your opponent can get away from his hand. You want to call against someone that is like 10/2 and can't lay down an overpair. You won't hit often enough to be profitable against a marginal holding. You need either position and lots of callers or you need to be able to put your opponent on a big hand that you can stack him with if you hit.

[kurto]

you SHOULD call a small raise IN POSITION with suited connectors if the PF raiser has a decent stack.

these are hands that you can make monster hands with if you hit.

If the player is shortstacked then fold.

[jzpiano14]

hand from today....this is why I play sooted connectors

Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: Hero( $47.04 )
Seat 5: BB ( $29.90 )
Seat 4: SB( $7.50 )
Seat 3: Villan ( $29.90 )
SB posts small blind [$0.10].
BB posts big blind [$0.25].

Dealt to Hero [ 8c 9c ]
Hero calls [$0.25].
Villan raises [$2].
SB folds.
BB calls [$1.75].
Hero calls [$1.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 9d, 9s ]
BB checks.
Hero checks.
Villan bets [$3].
BB calls [$3].
Hero raises [$10].
Villan is all-In.
BB folds.
Hero calls [$17.90].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
Hero shows [ 8c, 9c ] a full house, Nines full of eights.
Villan doesn't show [ Ah, Ac ] two pairs, aces and nines.
Hero wins $62.90 from the main pot with a full house, Nines full of eights.
Villan has left the table.

[NYCNative]

If a rock is raising me, no way. If someone who is raising PF with all kinds of crap does it, of course. Any unpaired overcards to your connectors are hardy prohibitive favorites here - they're only 65% to win through five cards. You don't even have to flop your monster to win the hand if you have a good read, just hit the raggy flop.

I would much rather defend my blinds or battle a maniac with a 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif than something like KJo which, while the better hand, is so easily dominated and tougher to get away from.

As long as you know your villain, can resist the temptation to pay too much for a draw and can control the pot size (IOW, play solid post-flop poker) playing suited connectors in the face of a raise can be very profitable even though you will have to deal with the frustration of folding a LOT when it doesn't hit.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
If a rock is raising me, no way

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is wrong. Rocks are the people you want to play these hands with because they're much easier to put on a hand. I'd rather call with 78s against a rock who I can put on a definite range of hands then a LAG who could have anything.

[pokerjoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never call a standard raise with a small SC unless many other people have already called the raise before me.
This almost never happens.
If I thought it was a blind steal raise, I'd be slightly more inclined to call, but barely.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got it all wrong. There's no reason to call a weak raise with SC's because your opponent can get away from his hand. You want to call against someone that is like 10/2 and can't lay down an overpair. You won't hit often enough to be profitable against a marginal holding. You need either position and lots of callers or you need to be able to put your opponent on a big hand that you can stack him with if you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmhmmmm. going up against KQo with 45s sucks since you both have to hit your draw. against AA it is a great play.

People dont pay attention to how you play unless you are extreme or they are in the top 10-20%. At 25-50 most people have no idea if u play Suited connectors or not.

[jzpiano14]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a rock is raising me, no way

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is wrong. Rocks are the people you want to play these hands with because they're much easier to put on a hand. I'd rather call with 78s against a rock who I can put on a definite range of hands then a LAG who could have anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

[NYCNative]

I'd rather have a hand that has a 40% shot to win than a 15% shot to win. That said, I see your point.

[deepdowntruth]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather have a hand that has a 40% shot to win than a 15% shot to win. That said, I see your point.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's 40% to win a couple BB or 15% to double through someone, I'll take the latter every time.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
you SHOULD call a small raise IN POSITION with suited connectors if the PF raiser has a decent stack.

these are hands that you can make monster hands with if you hit.

If the player is shortstacked then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

SC's are ideal after a raise when you have position.

[brian94709]

I dont really understand what people are saying here.
The size of bets you can expect will not allow you to draw to a straight or flush with correct pot odds... especially when you factor in the times you hit your draw but your opponent just folds his whiffed overcards.
So if you're just playing your cards to hope to hit the flop with trips and two pairs or whatever, then you should be advocating playing any two cards whatsoever against a raise.
Sorry I dont get it.

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont really understand what people are saying here.
The size of bets you can expect will not allow you to draw to a straight or flush with correct pot odds... especially when you factor in the times you hit your draw but your opponent just folds his whiffed overcards.
So if you're just playing your cards to hope to hit the flop with trips and two pairs or whatever, then you should be advocating playing any two cards whatsoever against a raise.
Sorry I dont get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an interesting point. Heads up, even if you hit your straight or flush draw you probably won't have good enough pots odds alone to call. You need good implied odds, which is why I guess you want to be up against someone with a strong hand who won't lay it down. So a rock with AA is perfect here :-)

In a multiway pot you may well get the pot odds you require.

[brian94709]

Yeah I agreed it could be good to call a raise with a small SC as long as there are a few other people along for the ride too.
Sure if you know 100% for sure that your opponent will not fold whatever holding he has for any reason, then you can have good implied odds on your draw. That doesnt seem too realistic to me..

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Assuming no one pays attention to your play, and especially the details of what cards you play preflop and how, is it better to call a standard raise (3x-4xBB) with suited connectors or fold them? Obviously this depends on the situation, so consider when you call a standard raise preflop with a PP (which for me is almost always). Is there a parallel with suited connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can call the raise if:
- you have position
- you have odds

Position: this is very important if you are going to play a drawing hand. Apart from flopping a straight or better, your best option is flopping a flush/straight draw. You are facing a preflop raiser, so he is likely to continue betting after the flop. When you have position, you can observe the action. If you are still drawing on the flop, you can make a decision based on odds. If you have already hit on the flop, or on a later street, you can extract more money from your opponent because you have position.

Example: UTG raises 4xBB, gets two callers, you call on button. Blinds fold. Pot is now 17.5xBB. Flop brings a flush draw for you. UTG bets 8xBB, limpers fold. Pot is now 25.5xBB. You're getting better than 3:1 on your call. Unless this guy is so weak that he's gonna check/fold when the flush hits, you have enough pot and implied odds to call this.

Limping in MP would be a bad idea, because both preflop and on later streets, you have no idea what the players behind you are gonna do. If there is a big re-raise behind you, you would have to fold. (There is a flip side to this: re-raising to isolate. Much better than just calling with a strong hand in LP, because you force out players that might hit a lucky flop, and you create dead money in the pot)

The amount of callers is important because
a) they create immediate pot odds preflop
b) there is more chance someone will hit a second best hand postflop and pay you
c) they might create better immediate pot odds postflop

As for the parallel with PP's:
- calling with SC/PP is only profitable if stacks are deep enough. I cannot stress this enough. When you call with a hand that figures to be the underdog, you NEED implied odds. Bigger stacks = bigger implied odds. Calling a small stack or with a small stack is a leak.

- in order to call with a SC, you need better position than to call with a PP. This is because with a PP, your hand is defined on the flop. You either hit trips, or you dont. With a SC, chances are that you will need more than one street to make your hand. This means you need position, in order to make your postflop play not only easier, but simply profitable.

- SC's and PP's are most alike because they are hands that are probably an underdog preflop, but they have great potential to make monster hands. Never forget the basics: you are looking for a cheap (= pot odds) opportunity to give these hands a chance to hit big. When they do, you need to be able to extract the most (= implied odds).

[ QUOTE ]
2. How valid is it to say that your opponents at low limits (NL25/NL50) do not pay attention to what cards you play and how you play them?

[/ QUOTE ]

As valid as you can get. They would notice a maniac. A rock would probably remain under their radar. As to specific hands: they could sit there all day and not have a clue what kind of hands you are playing, in what position, against raises, raising them yourself. They just don't know.

There. Haven't posted in a while, so had to get some small stakes analysis out of my system /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Hope this helps, all comments are appreciated.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got it all wrong. There's no reason to call a weak raise with SC's because your opponent can get away from his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually a reason to call. If you can bluff your opponent off his weak hand, then you can call and have two ways to win - 1. hit your hand, 2. bluff/semi-bluff your opponent.

Stack sizes is usually the most important part of the question. With big stacks SCs go up in value. With small stacks they are cheese, because you dont hit often enough, and its harder to bluff.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
you SHOULD call a small raise IN POSITION with suited connectors if the PF raiser has a decent stack.

these are hands that you can make monster hands with if you hit.

If the player is shortstacked then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should, is far far far too strong a term to use here. Calling a raise with big stacks with SCs can turn out well. But there is no *should*.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
If a rock is raising me, no way. If someone who is raising PF with all kinds of crap does it, of course. Any unpaired overcards to your connectors are hardy prohibitive favorites here - they're only 65% to win through five cards. You don't even have to flop your monster to win the hand if you have a good read, just hit the raggy flop.

I would much rather defend my blinds or battle a maniac with a 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif than something like KJo which, while the better hand, is so easily dominated and tougher to get away from.

As long as you know your villain, can resist the temptation to pay too much for a draw and can control the pot size (IOW, play solid post-flop poker) playing suited connectors in the face of a raise can be very profitable even though you will have to deal with the frustration of folding a LOT when it doesn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer KJo against a maniac, and 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif against the rock.

KJ figures to be the best hand against a maniac, and 87s is unlikely to be dominated by the rock, and I might stack rock if I hit an 873 flop.

[kurto]

It doesn't have to be multiway. You just need deep stacks and a player who will overvalue his hand.

I've beaten aces more with hands like 7-8suited then with smaller pocket pairs.

If you go heads up against aces and flop a hand like 5-6-7 with 2 of your suit, you have 20 outs to beat pocket aces...