Buying Button/ Steal attempt goes awry [Archive]

09-05-2005, 05:39 PM

No reads on those involved, table has been pretty passive.

Cryptologic 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.00 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (5.00 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.00 BB.

How should I have played this differently? Bet the flop?

WildDan

09-05-2005, 05:44 PM

Yes, I believe betting the flop is correct here. I have a feeling SB was looking for the check-raise (explains the bet out on what is essentially a blank on the turn), so you'd likely have to call that, and fold the turn UI.

Brain

09-05-2005, 06:07 PM

Did you miss the flush draw plus the fact your ace may be good if you hit?

numeri

09-05-2005, 06:56 PM

Yikes... Yes - bet the flop. And for the love of poker, did you notice you have a flush draw and an overcard? Granted, it's not a great draw, but certainly enough to call getting 6:1 on the turn.

Guthrie

09-05-2005, 07:16 PM

Bet the flop.

Isura

09-05-2005, 09:37 PM

Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

Hojglad

09-05-2005, 09:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
BECAUSE WE LOVE MINDLESS AGGRESSION! ARRRRGHHHH

bozlax

09-05-2005, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
BECAUSE WE LOVE MINDLESS AGGRESSION! ARRRRGHHHH

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, Talk Like A Pirate Day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html) isn't for two more weeks.

bozlax

09-05-2005, 09:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Scary board, follow-up bet with position, I don't mind it. Certainly better than the line Hero took.

thesharpie

09-05-2005, 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hojglad

09-05-2005, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
BECAUSE WE LOVE MINDLESS AGGRESSION! ARRRRGHHHH

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, Talk Like A Pirate Day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html) isn't for two more weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, you are mistaken. A pirate says "ARRRRRR." An idiotic neanderthal says "ARRRRGHHHHH." That said, I am glad to peel a free card here on the flop without having to pay for it. I'd say we should discount our flush outs to about 6 here, too. If the Q or J or A is out there, and the fourth diamond falls, they aren't folding. They also won't fold the flop if we bet it. A bet here on the flop accomplishes nothing, unless everyone really has a hand worse than ATo.

@bsolute_luck

09-06-2005, 09:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd rather invest a SB now with a possibility of winning it right there, not to mention position, it has been checked to me, the T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, free card on the turn, my Ace may still be good, it is 3-handed.

why are people suggesting not to bet this flop?

09-06-2005, 09:09 AM

jrz1972

09-06-2005, 09:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd rather invest a SB now with a possibility of winning it right there, not to mention position, it has been checked to me, the T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, free card on the turn, my Ace may still be good, it is 3-handed.

why are people suggesting not to bet this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a flop bet isn't going to take down this pot, SB's check screams "check-raise coming up," you're behind any legitimate 3-betting hand, you have a decent draw (meaning you'll be forced to pay off a check-raise), and villain just offered you a free card.

I would check behind on this flop as well, and I would have called the turn bet. I'm folding the river UI.

09-06-2005, 09:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone advocating betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd rather invest a SB now with a possibility of winning it right there, not to mention position, it has been checked to me, the T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, free card on the turn, my Ace may still be good, it is 3-handed.

why are people suggesting not to bet this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a flop bet isn't going to take down this pot, SB's check screams "check-raise coming up," you're behind any legitimate 3-betting hand, you have a decent draw (meaning you'll be forced to pay off a check-raise), and villain just offered you a free card.

I would check behind on this flop as well, and I would have called the turn bet. I'm folding the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm crap. But I'm still convinced use the small bet on the flop to find out where you are - fold to the check\raise. If you thought villian was going to check\raise on the flop, why are you calling his turn bet?

jrz1972

09-06-2005, 09:20 AM

Because we have a flush draw.

SB probably has a good hand, but there's no special reason to think he has a diamond.

numeri

09-06-2005, 09:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm crap. But I'm still convinced use the small bet on the flop to find out where you are - fold to the check\raise. If you thought villian was going to check\raise on the flop, why are you calling his turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
A check/raise doesn't necessarily mean A,K,J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. We have a pretty strong draw here to a flush or straight. With that many outs, we can't fold this unimproved until the river.

MATT111

09-06-2005, 09:32 AM

Bet the flop.
It might buy the pot and you may be able to take a free card on the turn (although i will almost always bet if it is heads up).
If check-raised I probably have outs.

@bsolute_luck

09-06-2005, 09:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Because we have a flush draw.

SB probably has a good hand, but there's no special reason to think he has a diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]

but there's a special reason to think his 3-bet/check screams "c/r"? a lot of pocket pairs will do this as well as UI AQ/J.

GTSamIAm

09-06-2005, 09:47 AM

Looks fine. Most 3-bettors have you beat when they 3-bet. You can't throw these bad players off a hand either. So just play the cards better than he can.

jrz1972

09-06-2005, 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because we have a flush draw.

SB probably has a good hand, but there's no special reason to think he has a diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]

but there's a special reason to think his 3-bet/check screams "c/r"? a lot of pocket pairs will do this as well as UI AQ/J.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a bet gets check-raised every single time, but yeah I see check-raises here pretty often.

If I didn't have a big-ish /images/graemlins/diamond.gif you could make a stronger argument for a bet. In that case, you could toss in one sb on the off chance that you pick it up, and then confidently fold to a check-raise.*

In the actual hand, I'm pretty sure I'm behind but I have a decent draw and I'm not folding until I see the river, so I'd just as soon get there cheaply. That means taking the free card.

* That said, I still wouldn't agree with betting the flop because I doubt you pick up the pot one time in ten. Still, at least it would be a closer decision.

09-06-2005, 10:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm crap. But I'm still convinced use the small bet on the flop to find out where you are - fold to the check\raise. If you thought villian was going to check\raise on the flop, why are you calling his turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
A check/raise doesn't necessarily mean A,K,J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. We have a pretty strong draw here to a flush or straight. With that many outs, we can't fold this unimproved until the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't mean AQJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif but - without a read, I'm going to give (3 bettor) SB credit for two cards J or higher in his hand. The chance now that one is the AQJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is 3/11. I can't see the call worth it for such a small pot.
However, I still see the flop bet having value - especially if you include the chance at a free card.
But like I said, I'm crap and I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I learn from the abuse.

teajay

09-06-2005, 10:52 AM

Call the turn.
Looking at the flop action, SB is scared of the flush. Sure it's possible that he has a single higher diamond, but in that case I think a lot of opponents would still bet.

You're getting 6:1 on the turn closing the action. Fold river UI.

teajay

09-06-2005, 10:59 AM

Are you saying that you don't play draws when getting proper odds because someone 3-bet earlier. :P

GTSamIAm

09-06-2005, 11:58 AM

I'm saying he's probably ahead, there's no need to bet this draw. Just play passively and wait for when you have the bettter hand to pound him.

TomBrooks

09-06-2005, 03:16 PM

FLOP: Usually I'd bet. You will often take it down right there.

TURN: You have up to 14 outs including a flush draw. I'd call.

TomBrooks

09-06-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB's check screams "check-raise coming up,"

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe. He might hope that if he checks, our last to act hero who raised preflop would bet again almost automatically, but there are several hands SB could have that he would three bet preflop that missed this flop or would be scared by the King on the flop.

A bet could take the pot down right here. If checkraised, we could assume we are either drawing dead, almost dead, or have three outs at most and we can fold.