Who says pushing into a dry pot is wrong?

[durron597]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t290)
Button (t1185)
SB (t2785)
BB (t1975)
Hero (t1845)
UTG+1 (t1345)
MP1 (t1235)
MP2 (t2840)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100, MP1 calls t100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t290</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t190, UTG+1 calls t190, MP1 folds.

Flop: (t1120) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1555 (All-In)</font>,

[wiggs73]

Betting into a dry side pot with a PP is a move I'll often make since I have a better chance of winning against one opponent than 2.

Betting into a dry side pot with a hand that needs improvement is another story. I suppose a case could be made for it, but it's something I don't do often, if ever.

[raptor517]

i think you risk way too many chips for way too little reward. holla

[durron597]

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i think you risk way too many chips for way too little reward. holla

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My stack is not much larger than the pot..... and this flop probably missed both the 3rd guy and the allin guy. Do I really want to give the 3rd guy a free look at 6 outs twice?

[adanthar]

Nobody said anything about twice. You can still push most turns.

That said, donks do often have this tendency of bluffing into that same pot themselves and you can't call it, so I don't hate this. It's just that you need to be good some really large amount of time on the river to make it +EV, so this is about the only flop that I'd do it on.

[durron597]

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so this is about the only flop that I'd do it on.

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Oh, trust me, I'm normally weak tight with dry pots. I just thought this flop was *perfect* to push on.

[raptor517]

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i think you risk way too many chips for way too little reward. holla

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My stack is not much larger than the pot....

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yea but you dont win automatically if he folds. thats the whole idea behind not bluffing into a dry side pot.. you still have another person GUARANTEED To contest the main pot. hence the risk/reward aspect. im sure it worked out fine here, and im sure it will in lots of other spots, but i still think you risk too much just to get it heads up. holla

[durron597]

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thats the whole idea behind not bluffing into a dry side pot.. you still have another person GUARANTEED To contest the main pot.

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Well:

1) It's still early, it's not that important to make certain the shorty busts
2) My hand is often best, and the times that it isn't I am very vulnerable
3) The shorty's range is huge

I'm giving myself the best possible chance to win the pot, I'm not *bluffing*. It's not like I have JT.

[raptor517]

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thats the whole idea behind not bluffing into a dry side pot.. you still have another person GUARANTEED To contest the main pot.

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Well:

1) It's still early, it's not that important to make certain the shorty busts
2) My hand is often best, and the times that it isn't I am very vulnerable
3) The shorty's range is huge

I'm giving myself the best possible chance to win the pot, I'm not *bluffing*. It's not like I have JT.

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clearly you are missing my point. i could care less when and why the shorty busts. sure, yer hand could be best. great. yes, shorties range is huge. so huge it could involve something like A7 and K9 as well. dont get me wrong, against shorties range, yer likely ahead, but not enough imo to risk yer stack against the OTHER player in the hand. if you think yer around 80% against the shorty i might not hate it so much, but i dont think you can be so sure. im saying this is a -ev push in my book, and i dont like it. holla

[durron597]

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but not enough imo to risk yer stack against the OTHER player in the hand. if you think yer around 80% against the shorty i might not hate it so much, but i dont think you can be so sure. im saying this is a -ev push in my book, and i dont like it. holla

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I think you need to realize what the other guy's range is. He almost certainly doesn't have a pair, because of preflop. Thus he nearly always has big cards. I can't lose any more chips to the shorty, so I don't care at all what he has, I just want the other guy to fold. If I knew for a fact that the shorty had AA and the other guy had JT this is clearly a +EV push (to me).

Well, what is shorty's range, and what is UTG+1's preflop range and calling range. Also, what do you think about isolating preflop? Give me some hand ranges and I'll settle the argument.

Also, what the hell was MP1 thinking?

[Newt_Buggs]

I would much rather push pf after the SS went all in

[raptor517]

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I think you need to realize what the other guy's range is. He almost certainly doesn't have a pair, because of preflop

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by all means explain how you come to this conclusion.

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I knew for a fact that the shorty had AA and the other guy had JT this is clearly a +EV push (to me).

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this is so obvious it doesnt even need to be said. too bad you know nothing about where you are at in the hand. holla

[schwza]

first, i'd fold pre-flop (but call the raise).

i think betting the flop is fine, but with a dry side, you don't need to make such a big bet. the villain is not going to decide you're weak and push over you with KQ here. villain has ~950 left in a pot of 1100. i'd bet 350 and count on him not playing back without being able to beat you.

[good2cu]

I think open-limping with 44 here from MP is a mistake, prehaps a big one. You only have 12BBs here, and calling off 1/12th of your stack when you have to fold to an all in from another big stack is very questionable. This is either a raise or fold spot and unless the blinds are very tight, I beleive it a fold. You simply don't have the implied odds to play for set value

[jeffraider]

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I think you need to realize what the other guy's range is. He almost certainly doesn't have a pair, because of preflop.

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Hey, if you're limping 44 from UTG why can't this guy have 88 here?

[durron597]

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Hey, if you're limping 44 from UTG why can't this guy have 88 here?

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He can, but it's an issue of range of hands.

Edit: plus he's likely to fold 88 because I'm betting into a dry pot...

[raptor517]

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Hey, if you're limping 44 from UTG why can't this guy have 88 here?

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He can, but it's an issue of range of hands.

Edit: plus he's likely to fold 88 because I'm betting into a dry pot...

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durron what level are you playing at? also, if you limped mp and smooth called the raise.. then immediately shoved the flop, i would actually be quite inclined to call with 88. not a lot of hands you limp call there imo that beat 88. 1010+ obv isnt limp calling and autoshoving a flop, and just about the only POSSIBLE hand i can see is A9. im quite sure in that situation i would call with 88 most of the time, though i play that hand different in general. holla

[Allinlife]

I fold pf..too shallow

[jeffraider]

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Hey, if you're limping 44 from UTG why can't this guy have 88 here?

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He can, but it's an issue of range of hands.

Edit: plus he's likely to fold 88 because I'm betting into a dry pot...

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I'd fall out of my chair if he folded 88 at the $22s, maybe it's different at your level.