Ugly JTs, play along [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Buck_65

09-05-2005, 03:42 PM

Still my first orbit at the table, so I have a grand total of 8 hands on each villain. Both appear loose and have shown about average aggression, but I can't trust reads from 8 hands.

How's the preflop raise? I don't know what to do with small suited broadways in these spots.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, CO calls,

Hero calls, raises, or (I hope not) folds?

More to come.

09-05-2005, 03:49 PM

no need to raise preflop. you'll make more oney long term by just limping since you have more of a speculative hand.

when the heart falls, if he has the flush you still have outs to a full house. i would just call the turn and call the river unimproved (unless another heart falls)

gol4pro

09-05-2005, 03:51 PM

Preflop raise is great for meta-game purposes, and destroying your table image.

Either call flop, and pop any safe turn, or play the flop as you did. With a board this heavy on draws, sometimes I will just call the flop, and wait for a safe turn before I go nuts because there are so many scary turns.

Call the turn here. Not only was that card a /images/graemlins/heart.gif, but now AQ/Q9 has made the straight, and KJ/KT now beat you as well.

Raise the river if you fill obviously, but you're calling any river that is a non K//images/graemlins/heart.gif/Q, and possibly even some of those.

paperboyNC

09-05-2005, 04:25 PM

I'd limp pre-flop, just call the flop and plan to raise a safe turn card. I'd just call that turn card.

09-05-2005, 04:28 PM

after reading the others who posted on this thread i agree with them. this is a clear case of waiting for the turn to raise. there is a whole section on this in millers book. you should not poush your flop equity until it is much larger on the turn. raise a safe card on the turn

brazilio

09-05-2005, 04:40 PM

I'd like some other dudes to chime in, because at first glace I wouldn't say this is a wait until the turn situation.

kurosh

09-05-2005, 04:48 PM

PF raise is good.

I like calling the flop, mostly because you can trap CO for an extra bet on the turn.

As you played it... man that's tough. I don't like the call by CO. It doesn't look like a flush. It looks more like KQ or QJ to me. I think I'd raise, but it's close between raising and calling.

I don't think this is a "wait for the turn" situation for a three reasons.
1) 2 opponents
2) The only bad cards are flush cards
3) Your hand isn't very vulnerable

Buck_65

09-05-2005, 05:26 PM

I think the flop is an easy raise, as a gutshot, 6, or T will have to pay another bet immediately. Waiting for the turn makes some sense, and it may be applicable here, but I'm pretty sure raising the flop is better.

Anyway, here's the rest of this disaster. I called the turn with the intention to call a river bet UI, raise obviously if I fill, or fold depending on the card/action.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, CO folds,

Hero tosses a big bet in there and hopes?

paperboyNC

09-05-2005, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero tosses a big bet in there and hopes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously a terrible river card. But yes, you have to call the river. You beat AJ, QJ (other jacks as well). You are getting over 10-1 from the pot. I think your hand is good about 20% of the time (4-1). But that's because I also expect to see pure bluffs occasionally.

paperboy

Nick C

09-05-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop is an easy raise, as a gutshot, 6, or T will have to pay another bet immediately. Waiting for the turn makes some sense, and it may be applicable here, but I'm pretty sure raising the flop is better.

Anyway, here's the rest of this disaster. I called the turn with the intention to call a river bet UI, raise obviously if I fill, or fold depending on the card/action.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, CO folds,

Hero tosses a big bet in there and hopes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'd call, expecting to be shown KQ (or possibly a straight or flush) but hoping to be surprised by A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif or Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

By the way, earlier in the hand, the flop raise seems fine to me.