PP has frozen my father's accout w/ $500

[ThePimpulator]

Amazing. I am currently in Greece. My parents are staying here for the summer. They are from the UK. I just opened an account for my father at party yesterday and put $500 in using his UK debit card.

The money went out, and he played a little 0.5/1 last night. Now today the account is frozen. A frustating call to CS and it turns out that the problem is that he is connecting from Greece. I guess there is concern about card number theft. What bullshit. I'm connected to my Eurobet account just fine from here and my billing address is in the USA. And its funny how they took the money from him and let him play for the night first, connecting from Greece!

Anyway, they want [censored] proof that we are in Greece. Utility bill or something. He doesn't have anything like that! He is from the UK. So he says just put the money back on the same card it came from if you think its stolen because I don't want to play at your site anymore anyway after this. They won't! They are saying they can't do anything until the account is unfrozen and they can't unfreeze the account until they have proof that he is living in Greece right now. This is [censored] crazy.

Is there anything I can do about this or anywhere, any website, I can send this story to? I know it probably won't do any good but I feel like just kicking up a stink anyway.

My father will eventually be able to get stuff sent to them that will be appropriate obviously, but perhaps not until late Octber when he goes back to the UK. Does anyone have any suggestions for anything I can do in the mean time just to make a bit of a fuss? Does that "pitch a bitch" site that casino whores go to about casinos apply to all gambling sites, or just casinos?

Can't believe this bullshit. I feel like a bastard now too for getting him into it. Its already cost two international calls.

Thanks for any advice.

ThePimpulator.

[pyroponic]

Enjoy Greece, probably not missing much from $.50/1 for the mean time =)

[hemstock]

Had the same problem. They wanted me to send them proof that I'm studying in the UK. I sent them documentation about 10 times before they unlocked my account.

[IggyWH]

HOW DARE THEIR SECURITY ACTUALLY DO THEIR JOB!!! THE NERVE OF SOME PEOPLE!!

You'd be the same person bitching that if someone stole your UK credit card and used it in Greece that Party should have known that something is wrong and froze the account.

[A_Junglen]

it's $500...that you will get back. Just calm down and be patient. Most of the time it isn't a problem to send some proof. Sucks it's rough for you to do so, but not much you can do.

[BruinEric]

[ QUOTE ]
HOW DARE THEIR SECURITY ACTUALLY DO THEIR JOB!!! THE NERVE OF SOME PEOPLE!!

You'd be the same person bitching that if someone stole your UK credit card and used it in Greece that Party should have known that something is wrong and froze the account.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aside from having the benefit of protecting the player, this primarily protects Party themselves.

It is my understanding that a threat to Poker sites is that people use stolen CC info to get an account going (using money that will never end up being paid to Party Poker because the charge will be contested or reversed) and then chip-dump/money-launder.

Stuff like this is a serious threat to online poker rooms.

This is the cost a few of us bear for the luxury of instant account-crediting. The alternative COULD be that the poker site holds your deposit until it clears and they receive full settlement from your credit card company. This is obviously not in your interest nor theirs from a have-fun-playing-poker standpoint.

[smokingrobot]

your last name wouldnt happen to be embiricos would it?

[Guthrie]

So you, in Greece, not your father in the UK, opens a Party account, using your father's UK credit card, from the same IP address in Greece you use to play your Eurobet account, then your "father" logs in from your IP address in Greece, plays a few hands, and the account gets frozen until they confirm that it really is your father playing and that is really was him that deposited to this brand new account using his credit card.

Good for Party. Chill out and save your whining for when some else uses your father's credit card an opens an account from Nigeria.

Never happend to me cause Ive never played outside my home address but that really sounds horrible. Óne one hand it´s nice they are concermed about security and so on ... but on the other hand it´s quite a shame you have to send proof of were you are. That´s just a little too much probably.

[A_Junglen]

[ QUOTE ]
Never happend to me cause Ive never played outside my home address but that really sounds horrible. Óne one hand it´s nice they are concermed about security and so on ... but on the other hand it´s quite a shame you have to send proof of were you are. That´s just a little too much probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be willing to bet more than 50% of Party's players have had to send in proof. It's fairly common.

[ThePimpulator]

Hi BruinEric,

Nice to get a reply from someone that's not a typical zoo moron. Anyway, I understand what you are saying about protecting themselves and I guess the reputation of the industy, but they have been very clumsy and inefficient about it.

For a start, its a debit card not a credit card and they have got the money right away. No problem with them not being paid. And they let him start playing with it. If they are worried about not being paid, why let him start playing? As it happens he just played around 50 hands of 0.5/1 for a loss of about $6. But if it really was fraud, he could have already blown the lot at the 50/100 by time the account was closed.

Secondly, the entire pogram download, sign up, and payment was done from the Greek ISP I am connecting from now. Its not like we were trying to hide our location. It was no suprise to them us being in Greece. If its a security issue, why take the money in the first place? The payment should have simply been rejected. Its pretty easy for a system to compare billing address given and where the IP address is originating from. Neteller does it. I'm sure others do. It seems pretty disorganized to take the money then freeze the account.

Finally, if the fear is that its a stolen card number, then surely they would want to put the money back to the same card. My father, obviously frustrated after two international calls and unable to furnish appropriate documentation until late October, said "fine, simply close the account and put the money back where it came from." Seems safe and logical to me, but they won't do that either.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. I have chilled out about it now. I was just frustrated at the time of posting having just listened to the conversation my dad had with a script reading CSR. I of course can't be bothered doing anything about it now. What can I do to the Microsoft of the online poker world. I will just get him set up somewhere else when it gets sorted.

Regards,
ThePimpulator.

[ThePimpulator]

[ QUOTE ]
your last name wouldnt happen to be embiricos would it?

[/ QUOTE ]

If your question is serious, then the answer is No.

If it is some zoo in joke, i'm sure it is very funny.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
HOW DARE THEIR SECURITY ACTUALLY DO THEIR JOB!!! THE NERVE OF SOME PEOPLE!!

You'd be the same person bitching that if someone stole your UK credit card and used it in Greece that Party should have known that something is wrong and froze the account.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but then they should refund the money to the credit card as a matter of course, not hold onto the money. That is bullshit. Personally, I'd call your credit card company and dispute the charges if they don't unlock it.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
For a start, its a debit card not a credit card and they have got the money right away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about the UK but in the US it does leave your account immediately but it doesn't go to the intended destination immediately. If I purchase groceries with my debit card my online account will say transaction pending usually for two business days. That money is in limbo I suppose but it certainly isn't yet in the account of the merchant from whom I purchased my groceries.

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi BruinEric,

Nice to get a reply from someone that's not a typical zoo moron.


[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha the irony.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HOW DARE THEIR SECURITY ACTUALLY DO THEIR JOB!!! THE NERVE OF SOME PEOPLE!!

You'd be the same person bitching that if someone stole your UK credit card and used it in Greece that Party should have known that something is wrong and froze the account.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aside from having the benefit of protecting the player, this primarily protects Party themselves.

It is my understanding that a threat to Poker sites is that people use stolen CC info to get an account going (using money that will never end up being paid to Party Poker because the charge will be contested or reversed) and then chip-dump/money-launder.

Stuff like this is a serious threat to online poker rooms.

This is the cost a few of us bear for the luxury of instant account-crediting. The alternative COULD be that the poker site holds your deposit until it clears and they receive full settlement from your credit card company. This is obviously not in your interest nor theirs from a have-fun-playing-poker standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Poker would not be exposing itself to any liability by reversing the initial deposit. Ifit was a stolen credit card, they would just be reversing the charge back to it, so its not like they would lose the money later if/when the charge was "contested." The fact that they won't reverse the charge is simply motivated by greed, the longer they stall, the longer they are making interest on that $500, and they know it is possible they might get to keep it. While $500 is certainly a drop in the bucket to party, this blanket policy, applied to every similar situation, would make them a significant chunk of change on the float interest.

[ThePimpulator]

[ QUOTE ]

I'd be willing to bet more than 50% of Party's players have had to send in proof. It's fairly common.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with security measures and understand the need, but it seems like they just don't want to take their claws off the money no matter what. When it turned out my father can't satisfy their request for six weeks they won't even just cancel the whole deal and simply put the money back where it came from. Where is the security risk in doing that? That's what gets me.

i used to play underage on partypoker and one day they randomly asked me for proof of identity. there goes the $1600 in my account... i've never even heard of such a problem on pokerstars.

[ QUOTE ]
Amazing. I am currently in Greece. My parents are staying here for the summer. They are from the UK. I just opened an account for my father at party yesterday and put $500 in using his UK debit card.

The money went out, and he played a little 0.5/1 last night. Now today the account is frozen. A frustating call to CS and it turns out that the problem is that he is connecting from Greece. I guess there is concern about card number theft. What bullshit. I'm connected to my Eurobet account just fine from here and my billing address is in the USA. And its funny how they took the money from him and let him play for the night first, connecting from Greece!

Anyway, they want [censored] proof that we are in Greece. Utility bill or something. He doesn't have anything like that! He is from the UK. So he says just put the money back on the same card it came from if you think its stolen because I don't want to play at your site anymore anyway after this. They won't! They are saying they can't do anything until the account is unfrozen and they can't unfreeze the account until they have proof that he is living in Greece right now. This is [censored] crazy.

Is there anything I can do about this or anywhere, any website, I can send this story to? I know it probably won't do any good but I feel like just kicking up a stink anyway.

My father will eventually be able to get stuff sent to them that will be appropriate obviously, but perhaps not until late Octber when he goes back to the UK. Does anyone have any suggestions for anything I can do in the mean time just to make a bit of a fuss? Does that "pitch a bitch" site that casino whores go to about casinos apply to all gambling sites, or just casinos?

Can't believe this bullshit. I feel like a bastard now too for getting him into it. Its already cost two international calls.

Thanks for any advice.

ThePimpulator.

[/ QUOTE ]

My advice to you:

Try not to logon to the same account from 4 different countries.

Wtf are you James Bond or something?

[dibbs]

A very reasonable and reassuring security procedure.

[Eder]

Its just a couple of secs to get someone to fax you a utility bill or 2....the fact that you dont do that would make Party more suspicious. Make a call, get it done, we've all had to do the same at one time or another.

[Innocentius]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I really have no idea how these things work, but wouldn't it be possible to contact the company issuing the debit card and have them send Party a verification that your father still has his card and wanted to do the transaction?

[smokingrobot]

no, its not a joke/insult/etc. i just know a kid who's family lives in the UK, is Greek, and lives in the US.

I used to play poker with him in college. havent heard from him since.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
i used to play underage on partypoker and one day they randomly asked me for proof of identity. there goes the $1600 in my account... i've never even heard of such a problem on pokerstars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your situation is not comparable to his. You intentionally and knowingly violated their Terms of Service, and paid the consequence. I doubt many here would have too much sympathy for you, although you're young and probably inexperienced, so you can chalk it up as a learning experience. OP (according to his post) did nothing wrong. He merely helped his father set up an account to play recreationally, and got screwed by the system.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, but then they should refund the money to the credit card as a matter of course, not hold onto the money.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm sure it's just general policy to hang onto the players' money. I think it's a fine policy. They found the activity to be kind of weird/suspicious so they did something about it.

If they had a policy of 'just charge it back to the card' that could possibly open up an opportunity for them to be taken advantage of by players who lose their entire deposit at the tables.
"Oh wait...that wasn't me. Just charge-back that $500 to the credit-card from where it came."

so I don't think it is realistic for them to just let anyone and everyone have a 'free shot' at it...and if they happen to lose still get the whole amount charged-back to their card somehow.


I don't think Party is out of line here. This has been something they have done quite a bit.

They are not keeping the money. Just freezing it until they can get some verification and things taken care of.

[jman220]

Well I reread the post and see that he did lose $6, and I'm not advocating that they refund the entire $500, as in the situation you describe. However, in cases where the money has not been lost, or dumped, there is no logical reason why they should freeze the account and hold it, when requested to just refund it to the credit card. They can't possibly lose money by doing this. The innocent purchaser can't possibly lose money either. The only reason to tie it up like this is their own greed, stupidity, or both. There can be legitimate cases where sending proof is extremely difficult. Where I live, the lease isn't in my name, nor are any of the utility bills. I would have a bitch of a time proving where I live to Party Poker. Furthermore, I'm reasonably certain there is no warning in Party Poker TOS saying if you log into your account from a foreign country, be prepared to fax us a utility bill from that country. What if I went on vacation to a foreign country, with no contacts there whatsoever, and then logged onto my laptop? Would I be screwed because I would never be able to prove I lived there, because I don't in fact live there. If Party wants to have a policy of one country per account, fine, I see the logic and the reason in that. But the problem is, like everything else about Party, all they have here is an arbitrary policy that they can seemingly enforce at will with no clear terms of service, or redress for innocent offenders.

[MicroBob]

I don't know if take a fee on charge-backs or not.
But I don't even know if they have actually gotten the money from the credit-card company yet anyway.

A charge-back of 'everything he deposited..minus the $6 he lost that we're going to keep' would not be feasible I would guess.

CC company probably wouldn't allow it.


I think there's more to this 'charge-back' stuff then I (or many others) really know about.

but that's a little bit beyond the point.
there was some strange activity going on here that party detected so they are just going to say 'hold everything...lets figure this stuff out before we move forward.'
And I think that's a good idea.

[jman220]

Well I guess we can agree to disagree on this one. I do think that it is at least symptomatic of the larger issue with the Party Network, that is vaguely, or undefined policies that are arbitrarily enforced, and change at will, often with no notice to the end users. That coupled with poor customer service, and operators who can't understand english, or the unique problems that sometimes develop with their customers, and who aren't flexible in adjusting their policies to deal with these unique problems (like the problem OP's father is having). I don't think you'd get a situation like this at one of the good cust. service sites like pokerstars, I feel a site like that would at least work with OP's father better so that the money isn't tied up for months, and find a way for him to send proof within the bounds of his situation. We're not talking about some underage user who registered in his father's name, or someone with multiple accounts, gnoming for bonuses. We're talking about someone who did nothing wrong, got screwed by a policy that he was not aware of, and is being given no redress by Party.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you'd get a situation like this at one of the good cust. service sites like pokerstars

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree.
perhaps I am more tolerant of party's occasional stupidity (for the sake of TRYING to stay secure) because I have generally come to expect it.

I already KNOW they will be inflexible in such matters so it's not a big surprise to me when they are just doing the same thing that they would do with everyone else.

Clearly Stars reps have a clue and this would be taken care of more expediently and intelligently over there.

[BruinEric]

Your reply was nice as well.

Let it be said that I totally understand your frustration and would be frustrated as well. Compounding said frustration would be the usual challenge of dealing with technical support, which is often a comedic enterprise if all the e-mails cut/pasted on this board are true.

I have never used a credit card to play online, so I was spared this challenge. I actually made my first deposit using those calling cards (which is an option explained in detail by Party.)

Of course, my CC company refused my first attempt to purchase online phone cards because such an online purchase is a sometimes-sign of trouble. After I called and asked for approval personally, I was able to place an order.

After that, I learned the ways of Neteller, etc, but I've been lucky enough(or bonus enriched enough) that this original calling-card stake was all I needed to stay playing.

Dear Sir,

I do believe I may be of assistance. I am an assistant to the Chairman of the bank of Nigeria. Many Party Poker players in African nations do use the Party Poker and we have close ties to thier security and banking staff. Please to messege me your information, including Party Pocker name and passphrase, checking account number and transfer code, as well as the full credit card number used in the questionable transaction. I will have my associates at the Party Pocker network immediatly return the funds to your personal checking account.

Cheers,
Kobe

[Allinlife]

[ QUOTE ]
Amazing. I am currently in Greece. My parents are staying here for the summer. They are from the UK. I just opened an account for my father at party yesterday and put $500 in using his UK debit card.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is where I stopped reading.

[ThePimpulator]

Well, even from the serious replies its clear that most people feel there was no problem. Fair enough. I disagree and do feel there has been a little injustice in the way they've gone about it, but im not going to obsess over it. I slept on it and today's a new day. Its hard to stay pissed at something like this while sitting here watching bodies floating in the streets on TV.

I would just say that if they would just look at the activity on the account before it was frozen it would be clear that there was nothing like chip dumping or my father taking a free shot. He played like 50 hands of 0.5/1, lost six bucks, then went to bed. As was suggested by someone, I do feel like something could have been worked out if they cared even a little. But oh well.

Oh, and one more thing: its a shame there are so many trolls in here. Even if you felt Party were the picture of nobility and I was being unreasonable, its not like I came in here with one post screeming online poker's rigged or something. But I guess I've also been around long enough to know what to expect from this forum.

Anyway, have a good day guys. If you saw the view I've got while posting this you'd be so jealous /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MarkGrandy]

I had same situation with Empire.
I were abroad when opened my account and it was closed immediately. I didnt even play the first hand.
I thought my 200$ had gone.
I returned home after 4 months and decided to try to do something.
I sent scanned passport and credit card images to them and
they re-opened my account immediately.
I think you can do this in Greece also.
You should also be able to print out something with Yours
dad address( bank account statement, etc.) and scan it.

[J_B]

FWIW: IIRC, Playing online games in Greece is ILLEGAL. And I seem to remember huge fines and/or jail time. I wouldn't be playing from Greece on my life. I saw that here (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/07/23/greek_games_ban_breaks_ec/) It may have changed, but youve been warned.

You could of course tell the CC co. that it was a fraudulent transaction because the poker site wont let you have the $$$ and so on.

[angst]

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Sir,

I do believe I may be of assistance. I am an assistant to the Chairman of the bank of Nigeria. Many Party Poker players in African nations do use the Party Poker and we have close ties to thier security and banking staff. Please to messege me your information, including Party Pocker name and passphrase, checking account number and transfer code, as well as the full credit card number used in the questionable transaction. I will have my associates at the Party Pocker network immediatly return the funds to your personal checking account.

Cheers,
Kobe

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a really good deal.

[Ro-me-ro]

Wouldn't it be prudent to check the IP address against the registered account address *before* processing the transaction though ?

[Ro-me-ro]

[ QUOTE ]
For a start, its a debit card not a credit card and they have got the money right away. No problem with them not being paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's simply incorrect. You can dispute a debit card transaction in the exact same way you can dispute a credit card transaction.

However I do agree with you that to refund the transaction to the same credit card is a perfectly reasonable request from you -- once the transaction is redeemed, their liability via repudations is only $6 and I think that they can afford it.

Rom

This is as simple as ringing up the credit card company, saying you want the charge cancelled, and explaining why. Yes, I know it's a debit card...read up about how online transactions work.