every option seems bad here

[rybones]

what would you do? This is a 33. I only have 13 bb, I am in ep, I am not a short stack, it is still 8 handed. A Call is begging for a push that I cannot call (or can I ... I know depends on the stack). I can't raise without pushing and this hand and position seem too weak for that, and folding a pair seems weak?

Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: tpc23 (1520)
Seat 2: hero (1385)
Seat 3: montybear (595)
Seat 4: MARKGM (295)
Seat 5: BIRDDOG279 (655)
Seat 6: neilwashere (930)
Seat 9: ohyouknow12 (595)
Seat 10: timetogonow (2025)
timetogonow posts small blind (50)
tpc23 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ 7s, 7d ]

[brimstone1]

fold.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
what would you do? This is a 33. I only have 13 bb, I am in ep, I am not a short stack, it is still 8 handed. A Call is begging for a push that I cannot call (or can I ... I know depends on the stack). I can't raise without pushing and this hand and position seem too weak for that, and folding a pair seems weak?

Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: tpc23 (1520)
Seat 2: hero (1385)
Seat 3: montybear (595)
Seat 4: MARKGM (295)
Seat 5: BIRDDOG279 (655)
Seat 6: neilwashere (930)
Seat 9: ohyouknow12 (595)
Seat 10: timetogonow (2025)
timetogonow posts small blind (50)
tpc23 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ 7s, 7d ]

[/ QUOTE ]

limp and try to see a flop for set value. you have plenty of chips to dump this if raised more than a min-raise. call a min-raise for set value as well.

definitely NOT a push (for 150 chips) and there is no sense in raising it yourself since youre not value betting it, your trying to flop a set.

limp. call min-raise if you need to and fold to any raise more than a min-raise.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is horrible.
he has plenty of chips to try to see a flop for 100 or 200.
the most he is gonna lose without seeing a flop is 100 if he limps, which he can certainly afford to do.

[Jackarama_]

bin em , esp if your not willing to call a re raise or commit all your stack, i know i wouldnt do it with 77 from that position.

Easy fold for me. To those recommending playing this for set value I say UTG is not the place to be doing this especially with the blinds so high.

[rybones]

[ QUOTE ]
limp and try to see a flop for set value. you have plenty of chips to dump this if raised more than a min-raise. call a min-raise for set value as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

let me get this straight, I should be willing to risk 1/6 (approx) of my stack on set value? However, I shouldn't call more than a min raise?

I gotta tell ya this sounds like a bad plan to me. I need more proof. Right now I am in good chip position. Blinds are going to really put presure on those with t600 or less to move soon. If I fold to someone with T600 who pushes (assuming all else fold), they gain my 200+150 from the blinds. Their stack is now t950 which is nearly equal to mine. Plus I am begging a big stack to push.

Ryan

[Freudian]

Easy fold for me. Short of going all-in the risk of one of the other seven players raising you is too big.

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
limp and try to see a flop for set value. you have plenty of chips to dump this if raised more than a min-raise. call a min-raise for set value as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

how often do you think that you will be able to cheaply see a flop as you suggest, even after calling a min raise?

note: [ QUOTE ]
small blind (50), big blind (100)

[/ QUOTE ]

...and...
[ QUOTE ]
Seat 3: montybear (595)
Seat 4: MARKGM (295)
Seat 5: BIRDDOG279 (655)
Seat 9: ohyouknow12 (595)

[/ QUOTE ]

...and...

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 10: timetogonow (2025)
Seat 1: tpc23 (1520)

[/ QUOTE ]
sitting to your right.

I think most of the time you are going to see a preflop raise that is more than a minraise.

[inyaface]

I've limped hands like this and I've folded hands like this...folding usually works out better

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limp and try to see a flop for set value. you have plenty of chips to dump this if raised more than a min-raise. call a min-raise for set value as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

how often do you think that you will be able to cheaply see a flop as you suggest, even after calling a min raise?

note: [ QUOTE ]
small blind (50), big blind (100)

[/ QUOTE ]

...and...
[ QUOTE ]
Seat 3: montybear (595)
Seat 4: MARKGM (295)
Seat 5: BIRDDOG279 (655)
Seat 9: ohyouknow12 (595)

[/ QUOTE ]

...and...

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 10: timetogonow (2025)
Seat 1: tpc23 (1520)

[/ QUOTE ]
sitting to your right.

I think most of the time you are going to see a preflop raise that is more than a minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think youll see a flop about 1/4 of the time - sometimes for 100, sometimes for 200. if the 295 stack pushes and its folded around to you, thats an easy call.

some of the time people will be suspicious of the UTG limp and not want to raise you in fear that the UTG limp = AA or KK waiting on a raise so he can push.

also, sometimes youll get a "limp train" going where you limp and then a couple others limp and you see a flop for 100 with 5 people in the hand, which is the absolute ideal situation for your set-value hand.

the thing is, besides the times the 295 stack pushes, the absolute MOST you can lose in this hand is 200, and that's if someone min-raises. and unless something like 568 flops, the only time youre putting more chips into the pot is if you hit your set, and in that case, you're likely stacking someone.

i seem to be the only one in this thread who plays this hand that way, so maybe i should think about this move some more, but i think i like the limp move still.

i would really like to hear more on this topic b/c i certainly might be spewing chips here.

others?

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
i think youll see a flop about 1/4 of the time - sometimes for 100, sometimes for 200

[/ QUOTE ] ...or maybe less

...and your odds of hitting a set when you do get to see a flop are what? About 11%? So you want a 25% chance at making an 8.28:1 bet? Do you know how many chips would have to be available for this bet to be correct?

[Karak567]

what about raising here?

[splashpot]

Too lazy to elaborate or explain why, but I fold. I hate limping hand's like this out of position. You're just asking for a raise behind you.

Raise to 250 as your last action on the hand.

OCW

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think youll see a flop about 1/4 of the time - sometimes for 100, sometimes for 200

[/ QUOTE ] ...or maybe less

...and your odds of hitting a set when you do get to see a flop are what? About 11%? So you want a 25% chance at making an 8.28:1 bet? Do you know how many chips would have to be available for this bet to be correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

King,

After posting this I went and had some lunch, so I had a chance to think about the hand further. My answer above was specifically directed towards your suggestion to limp and the resulting odds of hitting a set, but a better discussion would probably be on the dynamics of the game at this point in time.

We are in a game situation where the blinds are rising to the point where the stealfest begins, and we are in a bit of a sticky situation. The two big stacks (we will assume for this discussion that they are reasonable $33 big stacks) are to our right, and not only would it be expected that they would pound on our blinds, but all of their preflop steals when we are NOT in a blind will be coming through us, potentially decreasing our chance of being first in preflop with a raise.

Secondly, our fold equity (and we need fold equity at this point in the game) is pretty low to non-existant over the players to our left. We have four stacks with less than 6x the BB, and their calling ranges are going to open up wide, meaning that we will want a decent hand when we run with them, perhaps something a little better than a typical stealing hand.

Third, if we make the limp as you suggested and 75% of the time we have to fold based on your criteria of mucking to more than a minraise, then we are in the BB next hand. Once again there are four stacks out there <6x BB and starting to feel the heat. It is reasonable that one of them is going to push with 22+, Ax+, KT+, QT+. We will need to be holding a hand in the top 12% or so (33+, A8+) to make a call even marginally +EV if a t600 stack pushes (assuming that the stacks are identical to the way they stand now, for simplicity in calculating).

We are going to need those chips, and tossing away t100 or t200 preflop chasing a set followed by losing another t100 or t150 after the blinds pass (assuming, for the stake of discussion, that we didn't have the chance to gain chips while in the blinds) sure doesn't leave us in the best of positions to weather the big stacks to our right.

We really need to be frugal with our chips here, and limping is probably the worst of our three or four options.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy fold for me. Short of going all-in the risk of one of the other seven players raising you is too big.

[/ QUOTE ]

[rybones]

King,

[ QUOTE ]
We are going to need those chips, and tossing away t100 or t200 preflop chasing a set followed by losing another t100 or t150 after the blinds pass (assuming, for the stake of discussion, that we didn't have the chance to gain chips while in the blinds) sure doesn't leave us in the best of positions to weather the big stacks to our right.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is why you should re-examine whether you r spewing chips in this type of situation. I would rather push here than limp and there is no way I am pushing here.

[Jason Strasser]

What the who the what the huhuhuhuh?

What the fck is going on in this thread.

FOLD! CALL/FOLD TO MINRASIE??

Christ make it 2.5xBB and play some freckin poker. You dont want to limp because you give up ur chance to steal the blinds, you dont fold because you have 77 and 13bb which is enough value and plenty of wiggle room. To those that say fold: you say 'the risk of a reraise is too much to raise'. Huh? Do people generally come over the top of UTG raises with 13bb with crap? No. If you raise 77 and someone picks up AA and shoves and you fold you are the one playing well. Late in a tourney I often abuse UTG as a spot to steal because people just dont come over the top. 77 is great because there are definitely opponents and situations where you will raise here and call off all/some of your chips.

What is going on here.
-Jason

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
To those that say fold: you say 'the risk of a reraise is too much to raise'. Huh? Do people generally come over the top of UTG raises with 13bb with crap?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think at the lower limits it is much more likely that your 2.5xBB raise get two callers and have to play your 77 out of position.

Abusing UTG as a spot to steal may work for you but I think that's because you don't play 33's (correct me if I'm wrong). In the 33's you may even have someone shoving with a smaller pair infact I see this move quite a bit even at the 55's and in this case folding to the raise doesn't work out well at all.

In the 33's you will rarely see 7 people folding here to a 2.5 BB raise which is what you will need to steal the blinds.

[cha59]

[ QUOTE ]
what about raising here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bump it to 300 if this seems like a tight table. At a tight table, you'll pick up the blinds frequently.

I think folding is best most of the time.

Comments?

[Pudge714]

Limp fold or open fold

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Abusing UTG as a spot to steal may work for you but I think that's because you don't play 33's (correct me if I'm wrong). In the 33's you may even have someone shoving with a smaller pair infact I see this move quite a bit even at the 55's and in this case folding to the raise doesn't work out well at all.

In the 33's you will rarely see 7 people folding here to a 2.5 BB raise which is what you will need to steal the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's right, you know.

[Nicholasp27]

5/10 rule states that if limping is 5% or less of your stack, limp...if 10% or higher, fold...in between it's your discretion

if u think they will raise, then fold...if u think they will just let u limp in, then call, as 1500 vs 1400 isn't really different and if u hit that 7, u could get some good chips, vaulting u into the >2k chip territory where you can do some damage

With stacks like that, this is a fold. Dunno what it is when stacks are more even with 13x BB. In a cash game, it's a call on a passive table and a fold an aggressive table.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
What the who the what the huhuhuhuh?

What the fck is going on in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easier to beat weak/tight opponents than people who know to raise here?

[fnord_too]

13BB is a borderline for 77 in my book. Sometimes I raise, sometimes I limp. Right on this cusp, I like to see a flop or two cheaply since it doesn't really impact me if I miss, but stacking someone is a real bonus. If I limp and only the blinds come along, that is fine since I have position on them and will play well post flop. Other times I just make my standard raise and play. Some times I even open push here. It would have to be a pretty amazing situation for me to open fold.

In this particular case, with the only two bigger stacks in the blinds, my decision will have a big read component. What I really want with this hand is to get one of the short stacks all in against me with dead money from the blinds, or to spike a set and double through one of the blinds. There are several ways this can unfold preflop, and what the players are like will really influence my decision.

The fact that there are 8 players left at level 4 (I think it is level 4) suggests the table is playing tight and/or passive, and I really have to go with the "it depends" cop out because I think it really does depend here. (I mean say one of the big stacks is really loose passive, and the rest of the table is folding too much, I like limping there a lot more than raising.) If the blinds are apt to (re)raise any two here if you limp or make a standard raise, I think you are in a push or fold spot.

If you raise and seat 6 (the next largest stack after the blinds with 9.3BB) pushes, what are you going to do? Fold getting right about 2:1? There are only two people you will be folding to a push from if you raise 2.5BB, so raising here is not a simple raise and fold to a push. There really is a lot of context that needs to be filled in here.

[tigerite]

For what it's worth, I would raise here to 275 most times, limp sometimes, fold very rarely.

[Ixnert]

This is the single situation I hate the most -- 11-14 BBs, small pair (though this is the top end of what I'd consider a small pair), UTG or UTG+1, blinds getting high. I hate open-limping for almost 10% of my stack (and playing almost 10% of my stack for set value seems very suspect), I don't like raising ~3 BB with a pair that's going to be a coinflip or worse against almost anything that calls, I won't have room for gathering much more information after the flop. But I REALLY hate folding, especially with a pair as high as sevens.

My default play here is to raise (usually a straight 3BB), with the occasional fold and hardly ever limping, if I don't have any solid reads on the table (if I've been mostly paying attention to other tables). Though I think if I had doubts about my ability to play it post-flop (because of lack of reads, feeling like I'm not playing my best, or whatever), this is one of those marginal situations where I wouldn't lose much by just avoiding the issue and folding, especially since I'm fairly comfortable going to 75/150 with an 8-9 BB stack.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
To those that say fold: you say 'the risk of a reraise is too much to raise'. Huh? Do people generally come over the top of UTG raises with 13bb with crap? No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. I hate disagreeing with Strassa. I very much like your thoughts overall, but at the $33s, this is very much not true. IME, hands like 44, and ATs are hands that are to be included in this hand range, and it isn't always shorties. Furthermore, there is next to zero regard for position at the $33s or lower. I'd say overall it's 85%+ Level 1 thinking.

To OP, I agree that the 12-14xBB stacksize is an enigma here. I seriously don't care for limping here. So it's either raise to ~250 or fold. With 8 players in this hand, I'm certain I'd be a pussy and fold here, and I'm not afraid to admit it.