Closed army bases for refugees

[STLantny]

Since many of the refugees will not be able to go back to thier homes within, at least, hte next year, why dont they start dispersing them into all the army bases that have recently closed? Take some of that 10 billion, put it into reopening the bases, get supplies, a shchool at each base, etc. I think it would benefit the economies that are going to suffer from the base closures, the kids would start receiving a good education, at least for a bit, and maybe they could start some adult education programs, that are mandatory for staying on the base, to get osme of these poeople turned around inot the right diretion.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
Since many of the refugees will not be able to go back to thier homes within, at least, hte next year, why dont they start dispersing them into all the army bases that have recently closed? Take some of that 10 billion, put it into reopening the bases, get supplies, a shchool at each base, etc. I think it would benefit the economies that are going to suffer from the base closures, the kids would start receiving a good education, at least for a bit, and maybe they could start some adult education programs, that are mandatory for staying on the base, to get osme of these poeople turned around inot the right diretion.

[/ QUOTE ]

2500 on there way up here to Massachusetts to stay at Otis.

[cadillac1234]

Billy Graham had the best idea yet. Every church in the US should adopt 3 or 4 families and either shelter them at their church or pay for their shelter elsewhere until they can get back on their feet and/or receive Fed disaster money or insurance.

[STLantny]

I dont believe in charity for anyone, except the people who can not physically participate in active, everday life (babies, bed-ridden sick etc). I firmly believe that we can make this a wake up call for these poor people, and we can get them a good start by making them learn/work, giving back to society, all that they have taken, in exchange for new shelter, work options, schoolng, adult education. The hurricane, for everyone still stuck there, imo, is a good analogy to whne a drug user, has hit rock bottom, and realizes he/she needs help. The poor in this area have hit total rock bottom, and now it is time to get them into "rehab" so they can be a viable, stable, productive member of society. And more [censored] charity, is not going to do it.

[cadillac1234]

So why do you think there is 'drug rehab'? Do you just push someone off a cliff and hope they can fly?

They have no homes, no money and the clothes on their back. Unless you want the homeless population to explode with zero chance of improvement you have to provide some sort of basis to grow on.

I'm not talking welfare for the rest of their lives, I'm talking about a stable place to live, shower and sleep at until they figure out where they are going to.

[ QUOTE ]
Take some of that 10 billion, put it into reopening the bases, get supplies, a shchool at each base, etc. I think it would benefit the economies that are going to suffer from the base closures, the kids would start receiving a good education, at least for a bit, and maybe they could start some adult education programs...

[/ QUOTE ]


I like the way you think. If you were running for something I might just vote for you.

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
So why do you think there is 'drug rehab'? Do you just push someone off a cliff and hope they can fly?

They have no homes, no money and the clothes on their back. Unless you want the homeless population to explode with zero chance of improvement you have to provide some sort of basis to grow on.

I'm not talking welfare for the rest of their lives, I'm talking about a stable place to live, shower and sleep at until they figure out where they are going to.

[/ QUOTE ]


Drug rehab, takes a lot or work to get through. Giving these people free places to live, free food, free everything, will just get them into the same cycle that thew were in in NO. Most of the poor, believe they are entitled to something, forcing them to realize they are not, can only help them. A drug rehabber, doesnt realize they need to seek help and work hard at beating the drug problem until they hit rock bottom. These people need to realize that working will get them "sober".

[New001]

You make it sound like none of these people had jobs or ever worked for anything in their life.

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
You make it sound like none of these people had jobs or ever worked for anything in their life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich kids with rich parents who are given a tremendous head start in life always think the poor sit around all day as opposed to working two or three minimum-wage jobs that barely put them above the poverty line.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You make it sound like none of these people had jobs or ever worked for anything in their life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich kids with rich parents who are given a tremendous head start in life always think the poor sit around all day as opposed to working two or three minimum-wage jobs that barely put them above the poverty line.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well I grew up poor myself and more often than many of the other people in the same sort of economic situation as my family were content to sit around and just collect welfare and do the occasional odd job to make a few bucks. The problem is that we have created a dependent class that thinks sitting around on the government dole is a perfectly acceptable way to live life.

Please note that I am not arguing against the proposal of the OP. I am merely pointing out that the characterization of poor people being able, but unwilling, to improve their lot. As with any generalization it is not completely accurate but it is not without (in this case notably) without a large kernel of truth. You can than the New Dealers for that.

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You make it sound like none of these people had jobs or ever worked for anything in their life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich kids with rich parents who are given a tremendous head start in life always think the poor sit around all day as opposed to working two or three minimum-wage jobs that barely put them above the poverty line.

[/ QUOTE ]



This is America, anyone can do anything, I refuse to believe otherwise. There are so many cases of people pulling themselves up from nothing, and go on to become very successful. I dont buy into the notion that just because you are poor, you can not achieve success. Making these people realize that you can have success, and teaching them the skills on how to do it, is always much better than giving out charity, re-inforcing the notion of entitlement. This is another major problem, I have with Democrats, they want to help, but whatever they put forth as far as policies go, always help to further the culture of entitlement. It is disgusting that people feel they are owed. Of course, not to say that the GOP is any better, they dont put forth anything in the way of help (which, imo, in a way is a harsh lesson, but probably too harsh).

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
This is another major problem, I have with Democrats, they want to help, but whatever they put forth as far as policies go, always help to further the culture of entitlement

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you provide some factual backup for this culture of entitlement?

I am very interested, I think you have made a major breakthrough here.


Also, how have you yourself pulled yourself up from nothing? I am eager to hear your story. I don't put a lot of stock into people that have never been poor or extensively worked with the poor's solutions, but as someone that has been there, I would love to hear your angle.

Thanks!

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is another major problem, I have with Democrats, they want to help, but whatever they put forth as far as policies go, always help to further the culture of entitlement

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you provide some factual backup for this culture of entitlement?

I am very interested, I think you have made a major breakthrough here.


Also, how have you yourself pulled yourself up from nothing? I am eager to hear your story. I don't put a lot of stock into people that have never been poor or extensively worked with the poor's solutions, but as someone that has been there, I would love to hear your angle.

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

Welfare, and funding for the poor has been historically a democrat lead thing, Im not entirely educated on the specifics, but it has always been my assumption, that Democrats "help" the poor, and Republicans do nothing. So most policies that are put in place, were done by Dems. I, fortuently have never been poor. My family grew up dirt poor, it was a different time though. Both sets of my grandparents came over from Sicily in 1920, there was little to no help setup for immigrants from what I understand. My family is very, very well off now, but my parents still have the values of the "old country" that they learned from their parents. I have had to work since I was 15, to buy anything above and beyond food and shelter that I wanted, except for private education, which they paid for, for 12 years. I got an above minumum wage job at 15, with no help from anyone, due to the fact, that I was instilled with the value of hard/smart work, will pay off, and I knew how to present myself to people. You dont need to be poor, to realize what makes a person successful and what doesnt, that is a fallacy. What I purpose, is nothing more than teaching poor people this idea.

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
Welfare, and funding for the poor has been historically a democrat lead thing, Im not entirely educated on the specifics, but it has always been my assumption, that Democrats "help" the poor, and Republicans do nothing. So most policies that are put in place, were done by Dems. I, fortuently have never been poor. My family grew up dirt poor, it was a different time though. Both sets of my grandparents came over from Sicily in 1920, there was little to no help setup for immigrants from what I understand. My family is very, very well off now, but my parents still have the values of the "old country" that they learned from their parents. I have had to work since I was 15, to buy anything above and beyond food and shelter that I wanted, except for private education, which they paid for, for 12 years. I got an above minumum wage job at 15, with no help from anyone, due to the fact, that I was instilled with the value of hard/smart work, will pay off, and I knew how to present myself to people. You dont need to be poor, to realize what makes a person successful and what doesnt, that is a fallacy. What I purpose, is nothing more than teaching poor people this idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

You propose teaching the poor how to have someone else pay for food, shelter and 12 years of private education? Sounds like a welfare plan to me.

[warlockjd]

So what programs specifically do you think are not helping?

Surely not School Lunches for welfare kids or College grants for underpriveleged youth with good grades?


Just sounds like perhaps you believe the Reagan 'welfare queen' myths, as many do.

I was being a bit sarcastic in my earlier response, but if you can name some specifics, I'd love to discuss this issue.....

[warlockjd]

linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_reform)

Maybe here's a good place to start

Welfare reform
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Welfare reform is the name for a political movement in countries with a state-administered social welfare system to institute changes in that system, generally in a more conservative direction.

Reasons usually invoked include:

the perceived high cost of social welfare
the alleged existence of people who live off welfare
the alleged lack of incentive for recipients to search for a job




[edit]
United States
[edit]
Welfare before welfare reform
Before 1996, welfare payments were distributed through a program known as Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC). In the 1980s, the program drew heavy criticism. There were numerous stories of "welfare queens", women who cheated the welfare system, receiving multiple checks each month and growing wealthy while not working. Other critics claimed that welfare bred a poor work ethic in the poor.

The AFDC system was under constant attack in the 1980s; these continued in the 1990s, when the system became a common target of Newt Gingrich and other Republican leaders. Toughening the criteria for receiving welfare was the third point (out of ten) in the Republicans' Contract with America. The tide of public opinion in favor of some change to the welfare system was considerable.

[edit]
Reforming welfare
The stage was already set by 1996. Even Bill Clinton, a Democratic President, had promised to "end welfare as we know it" in his State of the Union Address. The welfare reform movement reached its apex on August 22, 1996, when President Clinton signed a welfare reform bill, officially titled the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996. The bill was hammered out in a compromise with the Republican-controlled Congress, and many Democrats were critical of Clinton's decision to sign the bill. In fact, it emerged as one of the most controversial issues for Clinton within his own party.

One of the bill's provisions was a time limit. Under the law, no person could receive welfare payments for more than five years, consecutive or nonconsecutive.

Another controversial change was transferring welfare to a block grant system, i.e. one in which the federal government gives states "blocks" of money, which the states then distribute under their own legislation and criteria. Some states simply kept the federal rules, but others used the money for non-welfare programs, such as subsidized childcare (to allow parents to work) or subsidized public transportation (to allow people to travel to work without owning cars).

[edit]
Outcome
Critics made dire predictions about the consequences of welfare reform. For instance, they claimed that the five-year time limit was needlessly short, and that those who exceeded the limit through no fault of their own might turn to mendicancy or crime. They also felt that too little money was devoted to vocational training. Others criticized the block grant system, claiming that states would not be able to administer the program properly, or would be too motivated by cost. Finally, it was claimed that although the bill might work in a booming economy like that of the 1990s, it would cause significant harm in a recession.

Supporters held that the five-year limit was a necessity, that allowing states to experiment would result in improving welfare, and that the number of people affected by the five-year limit would be small. These controversies have not been fully resolved.

The consequences of welfare reform are still being debated today. Welfare rolls (the number of people receiving payments) dropped significantly in the years immediately after the passage of the bill. The original bill was set to expire in September of 2002; as of July, 2004, Congress had passed 7 temporary reauthorizations, generally of 3 months. Debate continued over Republican attempts to increase the amount of hours that recipients would need to work.

[edit]
Other countries
In many countries of the Western World, social welfare is linked to some aspects of social security. Depending how the situation is considered, the notion of social welfare may include unemployment benefits.

In France, the government of Jean-Pierre Raffarin has tightened the conditions for unemployment benefits: the duration of benefits has been reduced, and recipients must commit themselves to some "contract" to find new work.

Proponents of such measures claim that unemployment benefits are costly and that many people who do not actively seek work earn them. Opponents claim that the government is just trying to force people to accept poorly paid jobs ill-fitted for their qualifications, that many people actually cannot find work in good faith and will be thrown into poverty by the suppression of benefits, and that abuse of unemployment benefits is overstated

[STLantny]

Anything that is free education, is a good thing in my book. I have no qualms about pouring money into the education system, unfortunetly most of the people on the BoE here are corrupt, and line their pockets with a lot (hence, our public city school system is horrible.) But, I (and this may be a product of enviroment), can not count the times, I have seen a woman walk into the grocery store, wearing Gucci shoes, more jewelry than the pope, and use food stamps (I forget the real term for them, here in STL). Its the culture of keeping the poor stupid, ignorant, and assuming they are entilted to things that hurts our country. I see too many people who, have nothing to their name, but brand name clothes, and expensive sneakers.

[STLantny]

The whole other aspect that doesnt make sense:
People say I have no idea what it is like to be poor, because I was given a lot of things, well along with food, shelter, adn eductaion, I was given good values from my parents. If parents give thier kids everything, and instill nothing of value, they become spoiled, pissant, douche bag brats. Well, what values is the "government" instilling when they give people this free money. Nothing, except what they watch on TV.

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, what values is the "government" instilling when they give people this free money. Nothing, except what they watch on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to wonder the same thing when I see all these executives pilfering working folks 401Ks and defrauding investors. It's like they are so used to receiving corporate welfare that they now have a healthy sense of entitlement and no longer have good moral values. It is disgusting.

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, what values is the "government" instilling when they give people this free money. Nothing, except what they watch on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to wonder the same thing when I see all these executives pilfering working folks 401Ks and defrauding investors. It's like they are so used to receiving corporate welfare that they now have a healthy sense of entitlement and no longer have good moral values. It is disgusting.

[/ QUOTE ]


That wasnt my point. Maybe I wasnt clear, which could be my fault. The points, throwing money at someone, who has not learned how to use it, is like throwing it into an incinerator. Along with the money, should be the instillation of values, and education. Besides, your comparison is moronic. The people who were defrauded WORKED for thier money, therefor they ARE entitled to it. When I am talking about Entitlement, I am talking about people who think that society owes them something, for no good reason.

[STLantny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, what values is the "government" instilling when they give people this free money. Nothing, except what they watch on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to wonder the same thing when I see all these executives pilfering working folks 401Ks and defrauding investors. It's like they are so used to receiving corporate welfare that they now have a healthy sense of entitlement and no longer have good moral values. It is disgusting.

[/ QUOTE ]


Added to the fact, that this is the shrill elitist atitude, that comes from you leftists. Why feel the need to use sarcasm to make your point, rather than communicate like normal person, you arent better than anyone. Dont talk down to them.

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]


Well, what values is the "government" instilling when they give people this free money. Nothing, except what they watch on TV.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have to wonder the same thing when I see all these executives pilfering working folks 401Ks and defrauding investors. It's like they are so used to receiving corporate welfare that they now have a healthy sense of entitlement and no longer have good moral values. It is disgusting.


[/ QUOTE ]


That wasnt my point. Maybe I wasnt clear, which could be my fault. The points, throwing money at someone, who has not learned how to use it, is like throwing it into an incinerator. Along with the money, should be the instillation of values, and education. Besides, your comparison is moronic. The people who were defrauded WORKED for thier money, therefor they ARE entitled to it. When I am talking about Entitlement, I am talking about people who think that society owes them something, for no good reason

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. When the government provides wealthy executives with corporate welfare without making them work for it, the executives don't learn good values which leads to the wealthy executives defrauding investors and stealing money from working folks' pension plans and 401Ks.

It is amazing how much of an expert you are on welfare given that you have never done anything in your life except live off the backs of your parents. Do you think you would have received 12 years of private education if you had been born to a single, black woman in the projects?

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
Added to the fact, that this is the shrill elitist atitude, that comes from you leftists. Why feel the need to use sarcasm to make your point, rather than communicate like normal person, you arent better than anyone. Dont talk down to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you were the one telling the poor that they don't have good values? Do you know any poor people? I doubt it.

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
It is amazing how much of an expert you are on welfare given that you have never done anything in your life except live off the backs of your parents. Do you think you would have received 12 years of private education if you had been born to a single, black woman in the projects?


[/ QUOTE ]
He'd have obviously found some way to make his way up in the world. He'd still be posting on twoplustwo, arguing the same very argument, except from the point of view of somebody who decided he was sick of living without money and magically made enough to go through private school. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Bez]

I think the OP has talked a lot of crap wrt some of his responses, slating all poor people. However, the military base idea is good, especially the mandatory adult education program.