Bad call

Paradise: $2-$4. Very loose player limps UTG, next but one (another loose player calls). Next two fold. I have KK and raise. Cold called by loose player next to me. Button folds, small blind folds. Big blind calls as do all others.


Five of us see flop come: [ Td 6s 8c ]


Big blind checks, UTG bets, next player calls, I raise. All call!


Turn: [ 4c ]


checked to me. I bet, all call.


River: [ 9h ]


Big blind bets, UTG and next player both call. I am sure I am beat, but because of the size of the pot call. Is there any point in me making this call?


Thanks. Sorry if this seems a stupid question.


By the way UTG and the next player in split the pot. UTG had Ts7s, next player in had a pair of 7s. There was $74 in the pot. The big blind had Jd 9d.

Thanks,


I guess what I'm really trying to ask is, is it ever worth calling in seemingly hopeless situations because of the size of the pot.

Jessica,


In a game that loose, it is more than likely that someone stuck around with JQ giving that player the nut straight. A 7 gives a player the ignorant end of the straight.When the BB bet into you on the river and had a caller, your kings are DEAD. The original bettor might not have you beat, but the smooth caller might. Somebody hit his or her draw. You are most likely looking at the third best hand.


You could have mucked the kings confidently knowing you had the second or possibly third best hand.


For the record, laying down kings is hard to do, however when you a hand is beat..its beat


Best wishes


MK

I think it was worth a call Jessica. For $74, it only has to happen once in 37 times. If there were only 2 others it's a call for sure.


I remember being in the same situation sure I was dead when the first player showed A-T and the second K-T, and much to my surprise I scooped it. Especially with loose players it can happen.

That's what I was getting at. But given that I still have three opponents and one person still left to act if I call, is it worth a $4 call even at these odds?


mk420, had the pot not been so huge I would definitely have folded. I know that my kings are beaten. What I'm wandering is do the huge pot odds make the call right anyway because of the rare occasion when my kings are good.

Jessica,


The odds are that you are beat. It doesnt matter how much is in the pot. Sklansky talks about this in one of his books. A leak that many players have is calling the river just because the pot is large. Jessica you knew you were beat,yet you paid $4 to make sure you are correct. Have confidence in your poker intincts.


Did you think that anyone was bluffing? If so then the $4 call is a smart move. If you called because the pot was large, you made a poor decision.


I would lay down my kings in that spot because someone hit their draw. However in a different situation, a call or even a raise would be proper.


The only answer I can give is it depends on the situation and the players.


Nobody said poker isnt a frustrating game.


Best Wishes


MK

<BLOCKQUOTE>

The odds are that you are beat. It doesnt matter how much is in the pot.

</BLOCKQUOTE>


Of course it matters! Is the chance you're ahead unlikely (4%), or absurd (.1%) ? That's what matters. Saying that it's just obvious Jessica is beaten doesn't help, because 95% beaten and 99% beaten both fall into the category of "odds are you are beat". But one's a call, and the other's a fold.


Jessica, I think you have to fold in a pot when there are many cards that beat you and there are many people in the pot - regardless of how many have yet called, as people call just for the size of the pot. For instance, if the river makes a 4 flush and there are 5 people in the pot. Or if the flop came JT9 and an 8 fell on the river.


But in your case, there are 4 cards that beat you, not 8. The straight draw hit on a gutshot. What's the chance the BB has a Ten and hopes you have overcards, but bets on the river because he's going to call anyway? A couple percent chance is all you need.


Against better players, you can fold, but against unknowns at the 2/4 table, you don't make your money by folding on the river.

In these spots, the trick is to concentrate on how often you've seen your opponents make the plays they did with hands that you can beat. Sometimes it's barely one in one hundred. Think about how often you've seen an opponent check something as good as two pair or even a set because the straight threat was apparent, and how often they bet into apparent strength only with nut or near-nut hands.


Notice that you would have had to call had you checked the turn, and that betting the turn makes folding the river easier.

When you over call you have to beat at least two players, and the other caller, while he might only have a mediocre hand isn't bluffing. So in general, your hand has to be better to overcall on the river than it would be to call only a bettor. With a bet and two callers, and a scary board, your hand needs to be very good.


So to answer your question, while KK may be good enough to call only the bettor in this spot it should be folded once there are already two callers. That's because your chances of winning are going down faster than the size of the pot has gone up.

it is 2-4, precisely the tables where people are drawing gutshots and backdoor flushes and bottom pair/no kickers, etc. if there were a limit where people holding a single card to a gutshot just hit their draw, this is it. 4 people saw the river? and you think KK has any chance at all of being beat? you're crazy. folding on the river is clear here. doesn't matter how much is in the pot. FTOP dictates this. if you know what your opponents hold, it doesn't matter how big the pot is, if you know you have everybody beat, you can play. if you know YOU are beat, why throw away a few extra chips into an already enormous pot? if you know what your opponents cards are, you don't have to guess if pot odds dictate a call on the river. you know whether to raise or fold. this may not always be the case with your cards and board, but at that limit, you know you are beat. one important consideration is that somebody bet and somebody called... the bettor may have very little. however, callers are not bluffing. you now have to beat a bettor and a caller. you are for sure %100 beat.