My big leak

[MixedNuts]

I think that this is one of my biggest leaks, going for draws and missing. It seems that I do this all the time and slowly lose money. I never seem to make it up when I do hit my draws. The Joker is a maniac and has to put in the last bet. The Penguin is pretty ABC. Any thoughts?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Batman is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG+2<font color="#CC3333">(The Penguin)</font> posts a blind of $0.35.
<font color="#CC3333">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 <font color="#CC3333">(The Joker)</font> calls, UTG+2 <font color="#CC3333">(The Penguin)</font> (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Batman calls, UTG+1<font color="#CC3333">(The Joker)</font> calls, UTG+2 <font color="#C3333">(The Penguin)</font> calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.80 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Batman checks, The Joker checks, <font color="#CC3333">The Penguin bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls, Batman calls, The Joker calls.

Turn: (7.40 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Batman checks, The Joker checks, <font color="#CC3333">The Penguin bets</font>, CO calls, Batman calls, The Joker calls.

River: (11.40 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Batman checks, <font color="#CC3333">The Joker bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">The Penguin raises</font>, CO folds, Batman folds, <font color="#CC3333">The Joker 3-bets</font>, The Penguin calls.

Final Pot: 17.40 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
The Joker has 8s Qh (straight, nine high).
The Penguin has Jc 6d (two pair, jacks and sixes).
Outcome: The Joker wins 17.40 BB. </font>

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[bottomset]

um you played the hand fine

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that this is one of my biggest leaks, going for draws and missing.

[/ QUOTE ]
You draw when you have the odds. This hand looks fine. Maybe you're overvalueing some of your draws and calling when you shouldn't.

Drawing and missing when you have the odds to draw is not a leak. Drawing when you should fold is.

[tyler_cracker]

Looks fine to me.

[istewart]

I will continue to actively read and respond to your posts if you keep giving the characters Batman names.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. The Batman stuff is cute, but distracting. It's like naming the pigs on the farm, I become too emotionally invested.

2. "The Joker is a maniac and has to put in the last bet." You need to work on your reads.

3. Betting draws when you don't have the odds is a leak. Regularly overplaying draws when you do have the odds is a leak. This play is not either of those things, ergo, this play is not a leak.

Now, you might've done yourself a favor by c/r'ing this flop (especially hoping that the Joker would 3-bet light), and then leading out the turn. At times, being aggressive with marginal hands that have good draws will save you some pots, but don't make a habit of it (a new category, over-playing draws when you DO have the odds).

[shant]

How is missing a draw a leak? Nice hand.

[BatsShadow]

Well played. There is no fold to be found in this hand till the river.

[GTSamIAm]

This looks fine. What's the problem? Don't post results. I'm guessing The Joker made a straight.

[Brice]

I could not get past the post due to the names.

Good job, I think. I would probably bet the flop though.

[Pylos]

This hand looks good to me as well.

I do however, have a very newb question. With overcards in and the nut flush in this position, would raising be a viable option or would calling/checking be the move? I find myself calling here alot without a pair, and I'm wondering if I'm playing draws such as those correctly.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand looks good to me as well.

I do however, have a very newb question. With overcards in and the nut flush in this position, would raising be a viable option or would calling/checking be the move? I find myself calling here alot without a pair, and I'm wondering if I'm playing draws such as those correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have no pair and you're calling with one overcard and the backdoor flush draw? This is just an exercise in out-counting then. Depending on the action preflop, you can discount your overcards however you see fit, and add 1.5 for the backdoor flush. If the pot is laying the correct odds, your call is fine. Same if you have two overcards.

[marchron]

Shouldn't we be raising flop and turn to protect our hand and/or exploit our equity advantage?

Or do I need to rererererererererererereread SSHE again?

[bjarne]

Nothing wrong the way you played the hands. Other players were making mistakes here.

It seems to me too that this is a hand where the SSHE advice
of playing aggressively with marginal hands in large pots
could be applied. Just can't see where the good spot to do this is.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't we be raising flop and turn to protect our hand and/or exploit our equity advantage?

Or do I need to rererererererererererereread SSHE again?

[/ QUOTE ]

1 we're behind so we don't need to protect our hand, 2 we're behind so we don't have an equity edge.

[caggin]

With bottom pair, I don't think we have much of a hand to protect on the flop. If we were sitting right behind the penguin, then we could raise to maybe clean up some outs, hopefully knocking out some of the other players. But our position here isn't really good for that play, unless we think there's a chance the joker will reraise and penguin and/or CO are capable of folding. It seems more likely that with a raise we're not going to knock anyone out, we're just making it more expensive to draw, and we're opening ourselves up to a reraise by penguin. I'd rather see the turn cheap. Hand was played perfectly imo.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't we be raising flop and turn to protect our hand and/or exploit our equity advantage?

Or do I need to rererererererererererereread SSHE again?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, no

yes

I'm a newb (go easy). Why is this not right?

On the turn, Penguin bets, CO calls making 9.4BB pot. If Batman raises (knowing his hand will be good - if made)expecting at least Penguin and CO to call; he's putting in 2BB to a pot of 13.4BB (15.4 if the Joker calls) 15% of pot...yet he has 9/46unseen cards to make his hand (11 including the other sevens) 20% chance. Seems 5% in his favour.

No doubt I have my understanding of pot odds and ev completely screwed but I would appreciate an explanation. I like to be aggressive with these hands (based on my screwed up logic), please help.

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, Penguin bets, CO calls making 9.4BB pot. If Batman raises (knowing his hand will be good - if made)expecting at least Penguin and CO to call; he's putting in 2BB to a pot of 13.4BB (15.4 if the Joker calls) 15% of pot...yet he has 9/46unseen cards to make his hand (11 including the other sevens) 20% chance. Seems 5% in his favour.


[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I'm probably the LAST person who should attempt to answer this...which is why I'm taking a shot at it. This is my, "see if I understand it and if not get a good flaming and learn something" post.

We want to contribute more than our "fair share" to the pot. If we estimate our chances of winning the pot are approx 1 in 5 or slightly better, we want at least 4 other bets to go in on each street for every one we put in to be betting or raising (for value). So if Batman raises, he should really expect to get 4 callers to come along.

That would mean he is making money, because his chances of taking down the pot outweigh the amount he is contributing on each street. If it is unlikely Batman will get 4 callers, he should not raise, because it is very unlikely we are winning now. We don't want to thin the field because if we hit our flush, we can probably beat all of them and meanwhile, they are putting more $ in for us to take down if we hit.

Close?

[bozlax]

Not a bad try, but you shouldn't include the money in the pot when deciding whether to value-bet a draw, only if you're deciding on your made hands.

You also shouldn't exclude your ace/seven outs. That gives you 14 outs, not 9, assuming you don't discount them, and I'm not sure you have to in this case.

[Guthrie]

If I had one big bet for every time I played that hand and lost, my winrate would double.

Last week I started keeping count of how many times I had Axs, flopped four to a flush, had odds to call to the river, and didn't make the flush. I stopped counting after 12 hands. I didn't stop playing Axs.

It's not a leak, it's bad karma.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not a leak, it's odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[Disconnected]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a newb (go easy). Why is this not right?

On the turn, Penguin bets, CO calls making 9.4BB pot. If Batman raises (knowing his hand will be good - if made)expecting at least Penguin and CO to call; he's putting in 2BB to a pot of 13.4BB (15.4 if the Joker calls) 15% of pot...yet he has 9/46unseen cards to make his hand (11 including the other sevens) 20% chance. Seems 5% in his favour.

No doubt I have my understanding of pot odds and ev completely screwed but I would appreciate an explanation. I like to be aggressive with these hands (based on my screwed up logic), please help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, pot odds will tell you whether to call or fold.

Pot equity (which I think you're trying to get at) tells you whether to bet/raise for value. In a strict value sense, and when you're value-betting draws, you don't consider the bets that have already gone in the pot.

That's not to say it doesn't matter, because you will also bet/raise to improve your chances to win the pot sometimes.

In this case, you have flush outs, seven outs, and ace outs. I don't think you have the equity to raise for value, and there aren't too many hands that Joker would fold for 2 that he shouldn't fold for 1 bet. Plus, you might get 3-bet by Penguin. So, no raise here.

With pot odds, you do consider the size of the pot, and it's an easy call.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't we be raising flop and turn to protect our hand and/or exploit our equity advantage?

Or do I need to rererererererererererereread SSHE again?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, no

yes

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm.

On pp. 148-9, SSHE recommends raising with middle pair and a backdoor straight draw (8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif/7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on a board of 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif/7/images/graemlins/club.gif/5/images/graemlins/club.gif).

Even though this hand is bottom pair, this hand is stronger, I'd think, because of the better backdoor draw and the ace overcard.

In the SSHE example, though, the bet is directly from Hero's left; that's not true here.

[ubercuber]

In the SSHE example you would make 4 opponents call 2 bets, here only 1 so you are not really protecting you're hand...much.

This board is fairly coordinated, we really don't discount any A or 7 outs? It seems like we could hit and still be behind at least a percentage of the time.

A big leak would be something like folding decent hands in large pots to one bet on the river. This is not even close to a big leak.