Where did I go wrong or was I screwed [Archive]

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Webster

09-04-2005, 07:50 PM

Also - I have many simple Starting hand questions and so forth and common LO8 questions that a newbie with 1000 total hands in LO8. Anyone want to volunteer to be a sounding board?

PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, Button calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (28 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, MP1 caps, MP2 raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 40.12 BB

Alchemist

09-04-2005, 08:07 PM

Looks ok to me, except I might bet the turn. Check-calling the river is probably best. If you got quartered, it happens. Better than getting counterfeited.

Oh and with all that heavy flop betting, good chance someone's got TT to beat your boat (probably the button).

Buzz

09-04-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
River: (28 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, MP1 caps, MP2 raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typo here? (How can MP2 raise after MP1 caps?)

Ironman

09-04-2005, 08:42 PM

Hi Webster,

In the end, the bets were capped on both the turn and the river, so it doesn't really matter that you just check/called both spots but in my very humble opinion, you should have check raised the turn and done the same on the river.

1. You have 4 people betting so even if there is another A 4 you shouldn't be losing money.

2. You have a fabulous high hand (no, it's not the best boat out there) but I'll take my chances with a full house and the nut low.

At this level, one of the opponents could easily be betting the ace high flush.

In the end, I don't think the result would be ANY different. Others are being aggressive, you are just calling along with a GREAT hand...

You're not folding...so you might as well raise.

Dave

Webster

09-04-2005, 10:14 PM

IF it was a typo it was by bisons which is totally out of wack in hold'm.

Ironman - thanks - My worry was with the initial raise as one of the main differences (among MANY)that I am seeing is that LO8 is WAY more passive. No raising to get people out or to bluff. More of a card reading game as opposed to a betting game.

MP2 = [As 4d 2d Jd] (HI: a flush, Jack high; LO: 8,4,3,2,A)

Hero = [2s 2c Ac 4h] (HI: a full house, Deuces full of Eights; LO: 8,4,3,2,A)

MP1 = [Ts 9d Th Qs] (HI: a full house, Tens full of Eights)
He started all this with that? Am I missing something? that is not a raising hand correct?

Button = [Ks Ad 4s Jh] (HI: a pair of Eights; LO: 8,4,3,2,A)

After the dust settled - I ended up EXACTLY even!! LOL

Buzz

09-05-2005, 04:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
IF it was a typo it was by bisons which is totally out of wack in hold'm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Webster - "IF" it was a typo? Are you implying a re-raise after a cap is correct? Or just that you're not responsible for proofing what you post?

Forget it. Doesn't matter. Just jabbing fun at you.

Regarding the hand you posted and wondered about, the A224s hand, I didn't really see anything wrong with the way you played it.

It's a very nice starting hand. Your limp/re-raise on the first betting round is just the way I would have played it.

And then you fit with the flop very nicely. I'd bet this flop for sure after two checks. I probably would also re-raise on the second betting round. (But I don't see anything wrong with your simply calling the raise either. Pretty difficult to know at this point just what's going on).

And then on the third and fourth betting rounds the action goes nuts!! Wow!!

Reading your account, I wondered if the betting with this group of players was often this wild, or if this was an unusual occurance. Makes a difference in terms of how you think you'll end up, but you're certainly stuck in this pot for better or worse.

[ QUOTE ]
My worry was with the initial raise...

[/ QUOTE ]

Your initial limp/re-raise was fine.

[ QUOTE ]
...LO8 is WAY more passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually.

[ QUOTE ]
No raising to get people out or to bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not generally a good idea in most games. But sometimes it works. Kind of depends.

[ QUOTE ]
More of a card reading game as opposed to a betting game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think of Omaha-8 as a card reading game, but I also think of Texas hold 'em as a card reading game. I think of them both as betting games. For me, it's easier to figure my odds of winning than in Texas hold 'em because of the higher frequency of bluffing by opponents in Texas hold 'em.

In a way, bluffing seems the essence of poker. But there's less of it in a typical limit Omaha-8 game than in a typical Texas hold 'em game. There's also less of it in limit games than pot limit games. There's also less of it at full tables than at six max or short handed tables.

That written, I do encounter bluffing from some opponents in Omaha-8 (and I occasionally bluff myself). When someone bluffs skillfully and infrequently, but not too infrequently, a bluff is very difficult to read. Usually though, certain individuals tend to bluff too often and thus become too suspect to effectively bluff. I think of them as "action" players. Some individuals at the table are pretty good at leveraging the bets from the action players (and maniacs). The players who are able to leverage the bets from the action players and maniacs are the ones who are tough.

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 = [Ts 9d Th Qs] (HI: a full house, Tens full of Eights)
He started all this with that? Am I missing something? that is not a raising hand correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are indeed missing something. Any hand is a raising hand in Omaha-8. Whether or not you raise depends more on your opponents than the cards you hold. But I'm not suggesting MP1 knows that. It's more likely MP1 thinks he/she has a better starting hand than he/she actually does. It's fairly common for players to over-rate starting hands where all four cards are ten or better, especially if suited and with a pair.

Then when the flop has a ten and MP1 flops top set, there's no stopping him/her. Indeed, after this flop, this turn, and this river, 9TTQs plays about the same as KKQQd, a solid starting hand, would play after a flop of 23Kn, a turn of 8, and a river of 8.

I rate 9TTQs as a marginal starting hand, one of the very few suited and paired hands with four cards of ten or higher that does not quite qualify as better than "marginal." But that doesn't mean it's not a raising hand.

However, I'd usually prefer to see the flop cheaply and from late position (or for a half bet from the small blind when I didn't expect a raise from the big blind), if at all.

[ QUOTE ]
After the dust settled - I ended up EXACTLY even!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of an exciting ride, though. In the long run, you figure to do better than break even with A224s hands.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Webster

09-05-2005, 09:47 AM

Thanks Buzz
[ QUOTE ]
I rate 9TTQs as a marginal starting hand,

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I thought and if it was a marginal starting hand I can't see it being raised. Hewas an aggressive player though raising 13% of the time.

BTW - I have gottin off the cliff from last night. Just a bad run of cards that happened early in my LO8 career. If it happened in hold'm I would not think about it but being new to LO8 it was a shock.

GooperMC

09-05-2005, 09:57 AM

I think you played this very well. I may think about betting the turn, however if the tables is as wild and crazy as it looks checking and watching the action may be correct.

Just as a side note you really shouldn't be upset about the outcome of this hand. In a 4 way pot this is what should happen however you continue playing this hand on the off chance that your opponents are morons and you can scoop or take 1/2 of a big pot. It didn't happen this time but it will at some point in the future.

This is kinda like having sharing the nut str8 with someone when you have the flush re-draw (or any other free roll). The majority of the time you are going to chop but the few times that you don't will make up for it.

Mr_J

09-05-2005, 10:42 AM

You got 1/6thed off A4??? Reminds me of a hand where I had A333 (suited) and hit my 2 on the flop. No flush but was aggressive since there was a much lower chance there was another low. Course there was, and it just happened to be A3.

"More of a card reading game as opposed to a betting game."

At lower limits yes, simply because people are loose passive. They'll just call you down and someone will usually bet anyway, so the pots build themselves. Higher stakes are much tighter & super aggressive and you won't be able to just sit back and take it easy. Betting ability (well ability to manipulate pot size) and things like raising to knock out hands you might split with, promo raises, bluffing and stuff all become very important. I think O8 is much more complicated than people make it sound.

Webster

09-05-2005, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think O8 is much more complicated than people make it sound.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to think that is the understatement of the year!! LOL

As one author said - you don't need experience to be a winner at O8, you need brains. In my 1600 hand adventure I have gottin myself into so many spider webs it's silly.