Isolation

[RatFink]

Isolation is an area of my game that I have not developed fully. I'm sitting in a 10 player game with a 86/6/0.55 directly on my right. (Game/seat selection I've got down!!) but I'm not taking full advantage of this. Obviously I'd love to be in every pot with this player since I will know when I hit the flop and when he has top pair or better.

Other than gently inviting them to join me at a 6-max table, how wide can I open up my hand selection. My guess is that I can open it quite a bit until other players at the table start adjusting. But I would appreciate some guidance on the best plans for taking advantage of an optimal situation.

This isn't a matter of isolation. If he raising preflop, you know he has a decent hand. His raising standards will be pretty similar to somebody with 19/8/0.5 stats. Just play your normal game, he will be just sweetening every pot he is in.

Do NOT try to beat everybody else to his money. You will just end up beating yourself. Keep playing your good cards, and just play your regular game.

[Bradyams]

If he open-limps my raising standards should open up quite a bit. When a player like this has pretty much what can be considered slightly better than random it's not a bad idea to isolate, and hope you catch anything at all so you can value bet his ass all the way to showdown.

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If he open-limps my raising standards should open up quite a bit. When a player like this has pretty much what can be considered slightly better than random it's not a bad idea to isolate, and hope you catch anything at all so you can value bet his ass all the way to showdown.

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I disagree. You MUST account for the other players in the hand. Now, if you are in the CO, and he is the first limper in, go ahead and raise it up almost as if he wasn't there. But, if you are both in MP, him limping shouldn't change your plans at all. In fact, the people behind you (especially the blinds) will have even better odds to call with the extra money in the pot.

Of course, this all depends on the table. But, at any table worth playing at, just play your normal game, and accept the money he donates to every pot.

[numeri]

You'll only be able to isolate if the players to your left don't like to cold-call. It's a lot easier to isolate a LAG who raises too loosely. In that case, you can 3-bet and have a much better chance of isolating. Here, you should loosen up your standards a bit if this player has already entered the pot. How loose, I can't say exactly. It depends on the rest of the table, your position, etc.

[milesdyson]

jack - isolation is not only when you 3-bet a raise, so it's pointless to compare this 86/6 guy to a 19/8. of course you're not going to isolate him after he raises because he's loose. because he's loose, you isolate him after he limps.

and about the players behind you getting 'better odds' after he limps and you raise... could you explain that?

Yes, I will explain it.

1.5 small bets start off in the pot. If you open raise from MP, there are 3.5 small bets in the pot. If you raise after he limps, there are 4.5 small bets, and since he will almost always call, the blinds can assume there will be 5.5.

Also, lets say you make a loose raise, and somebody behind you reraises. You feel pretty stupid for trying to isolate the fish, don't you?

[numeri]

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Also, lets say you make a loose raise, and somebody behind you reraises. You feel pretty stupid for trying to isolate the fish, don't you?

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I understand what you're getting at, but I think you're looking at the worst-case scenario. Besides that, in your example, I'd just call the 3-bet getting good odds and see what the flop brings.

[milesdyson]

usually when i raise, the players behind me have to call 2 bets, though. how does that factor into this?

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usually when i raise, the players behind me have to call 2 bets, though. how does that factor into this?


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Usually, when you make a loose raise, stealing the blinds is a factor in your decision. The blinds will be a bit more likely to call, so instead of getting HU against the loose guy to your right, you are playing 3 or 4 handed with the blinds in it.

Why? Because they will be getting 5.5 to 1 or better on their call of your raise, as opposed to just 3.5 to 1.

Do I need to explain that 5.5 > 3.5?

[milesdyson]

so you're saying i shouldn't loosen up raising standards at all because with this random hand player in here who will always call my raise, the BIG BLIND in the hand will be getting good odds on his call?

hmm..

and when i isolate and only the blinds call and i play 3-4 handed with the button and fold equity, i am actually pretty happy.

edit: your position and the table texture all do come into play, but as a blanket statement about sitting to the left of an 86% vpip'er: yes, you should consider isolating more.

[numeri]

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Why? Because they will be getting 5.5 to 1 or better on their call of your raise, as opposed to just 3.5 to 1.

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Again, this is a good point, but I probably have a better hand than them anyway. If I'm raising in this situation, it's more to get position on the crappy player than it is to make it HU.

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so you're saying i shouldn't loosen up raising standards at all because with this random hand player in here who will always call my raise, the BIG BLIND in the hand will be getting good odds on his call?

hmm..

and when i isolate and only the blinds call and i play 3-4 handed with the button and fold equity, i am actually pretty happy.

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You still haven't explained to me why you would voluntarily play bad hands just because somebody to your right is playing bad hands.

If you aren't going to play bad hands, why don't you give me some concrete examples of hands you WOULD play with the loose guy to your right that you WOULDN'T otherwise.

[milesdyson]

you're taking the phrase "loosen up" way out of context. has anyone said, "sure raise bullshit no matter where he limps to play it heads up and GAMB00L!!"? i haven't seen that said.

do you really want me to post some specific hand examples of where i would raise a hand i would otherwise normally limp or fold?

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Why? Because they will be getting 5.5 to 1 or better on their call of your raise, as opposed to just 3.5 to 1.

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Again, this is a good point, but I probably have a better hand than them anyway. If I'm raising in this situation, it's more to get position on the crappy player than it is to make it HU.

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You have position on him anyway. I still say play your normal solid poker, and don't get bent out of shape trying to beat the rest of the players to his money. More often than not, by playing marginal hands for a raise, you will cost yourself money by creating tough situations for yourself.

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you're taking the phrase "loosen up" way out of context. has anyone said, "sure raise bullshit no matter where he limps to play it heads up and GAMB00L!!"? i haven't seen that said.

do you really want me to post some specific hand examples of where i would raise a hand i would otherwise normally limp or fold?

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Yes, I do. And, explain why for each hand you post. Also, include information about position. Being UTG+1 while he limps UTG will be completely different than when you are on the button and he is in the CO.

[numeri]

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Why? Because they will be getting 5.5 to 1 or better on their call of your raise, as opposed to just 3.5 to 1.

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Again, this is a good point, but I probably have a better hand than them anyway. If I'm raising in this situation, it's more to get position on the crappy player than it is to make it HU.

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You have position on him anyway. I still say play your normal solid poker, and don't get bent out of shape trying to beat the rest of the players to his money. More often than not, by playing marginal hands for a raise, you will cost yourself money by creating tough situations for yourself.

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Yeah, I didn't really mean position on the bad player. I mean buying position on the table - i.e. the button. For some reason, I was thinking 'buy the button' in my head, and 'get position' came through my fingers.

[milesdyson]

next question - did you really expect me to post specific hands? i'm bored, but not that bored. instead, i will name some hands i would be raising more (i'm not about to tell you who limps UTG and what his stats are, and what the weather is like and how my balls feel at the moment i decide to raise). the hands that come to mind:

A9s, A8s, K9s, Q9s, JTs, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo, sometimes lower suited connectors, small pairs.

obviously if i feel that someone behind me is picking up on this, i adjust.

[RatFink]

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A9s, A8s, K9s, Q9s, JTs, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo, sometimes lower suited connectors, small pairs.

obviously if i feel that someone behind me is picking up on this, i adjust.

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Thank You. This is exactly what I was looking for.

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next question - did you really expect me to post specific hands? i'm bored, but not that bored. instead, i will name some hands i would be raising more (i'm not about to tell you who limps UTG and what his stats are, and what the weather is like and how my balls feel at the moment i decide to raise). the hands that come to mind:

A9s, A8s, K9s, Q9s, JTs, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo, sometimes lower suited connectors, small pairs.

obviously if i feel that someone behind me is picking up on this, i adjust.

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So, if he limps in MP1, you raise with QTo in MP2?

Once you get into later positions (Button and CO), I open raise with all of those hands if he doesn't limp, and still do it when he does. So in late position, nothing changes. In middle position, I still fold QTo in MP2, no matter who did or did not limp. The hand is offsuit trash.

[milesdyson]

depends on the players behind me dude, and i'm not about to tell you who they all are that would make me raise it. i will say that there are times i would raise QTo in MP2 because this guy limped in front of me. there are also times i would fold it and limp it. against typical players i would basically never raise QTo in MP2, so look, i am loosening up!

[Bradyams]

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If he open-limps my raising standards should open up quite a bit. When a player like this has pretty much what can be considered slightly better than random it's not a bad idea to isolate, and hope you catch anything at all so you can value bet his ass all the way to showdown.

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I disagree. You MUST account for the other players in the hand.

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Exactly, this is why you raise to shut them out, and get HU w/ the fish.

Maybe I am weak tight, but I generally only raise with people behind me with hands that can withstand a reraise. Things like QTo don't qualify.

[bozlax]

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In fact, the people behind you (especially the blinds) will have even better odds to call with the extra money in the pot.

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Ok, I'll admit that I've already read your argument with Miles, but haven't seen this addressed, yet:

The above statement is unmitigated bullshit.

Fishy is in MP1. It's folded to him, so there are 1.5SB in the pot. He limps (2.5SB). You raise (4.5SB). The first cold-caller is now getting 2.25:1 to call instead of 2.5:1. The next cold-caller is getting 3.25:1 instead of 3.5:1. If it's folded to SB, he's getting 3:1 instead of 5:1. If it gets to BB, he's getting whatever he's getting instead of infinite odds by checking. Which of these players sees their odds improved by your raise?

Improved odds over open raising, not improved over limping. I want to know in what way a limper in front of him loosens his raising standards.

It's called reading. Left to right, up to down. Put together words to make sentences.

[milesdyson]

boz, yeah. i was kind of trying to get him to realize on his own that raising can in no way make a blind's preflop odds better. guess that was too complicated.

edit: my lord... so you've been saying all along that because there's a limper in front of you, anyone behind you is getting better odds if you raise than if you were to open raise? GENIUS! this is a breakthrough. does this mean if there are 5 limpers we should not raise good hands because coldcallers will be getting better odds?

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boz, yeah. i was kind of trying to get him to realize on his own that raising can in no way make a blind's preflop odds better. guess that was too complicated.

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See above. I am talking about the difference between having the fish before you when you raise and not having him before you when you raise.

NOT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RAISING AND LIMPING.

Is english too difficult for you all? When all else fails, try a straw man, I guess...

[milesdyson]

you are winding, winding disastrously into a spiral of convoluted thoughts and confusion. you continue to form lovely, complete sentences that do nothing to support your claim that you should not raise more hands after this player.

I have not changed my arguement one word. If you would not raise with a hand under normal circumstances, there is no need to raise just because somebody soft limped in front of you.

Having somebody limp in front of you DOES NOT make QTo a raising hand from MP. I made the pot odds argument because the only difference between open raising and raising with the fish limper in front is that future callers have better odds to do it with, because of the presence of the limper.

That has been my arguement the entire time. I am not spiraling anywhere.

[benkath1]

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boz, yeah. i was kind of trying to get him to realize on his own that raising can in no way make a blind's preflop odds better. guess that was too complicated.

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See above. I am talking about the difference between having the fish before you when you raise and not having him before you when you raise.

NOT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RAISING AND LIMPING.

Is english too difficult for you all? When all else fails, try a straw man, I guess...

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To get semi back on topic. I think the reason to raise after the 84%er limps is to fold the rest of the field. You may have a marginal hand, but if the rest of the table are decent and don't like to cold call, they should fold, or 3-bet. Again, as it has been said before, this is all situational. Your raise to isolate with a marginal hand is to get other marginal hands that are better than yours to fold. If that won't work, then tighten up your isolation standards.

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boz, yeah. i was kind of trying to get him to realize on his own that raising can in no way make a blind's preflop odds better. guess that was too complicated.

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See above. I am talking about the difference between having the fish before you when you raise and not having him before you when you raise.

NOT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RAISING AND LIMPING.

Is english too difficult for you all? When all else fails, try a straw man, I guess...

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To get semi back on topic. I think the reason to raise after the 84%er limps is to fold the rest of the field. You may have a marginal hand, but if the rest of the table are decent and don't like to cold call, they should fold, or 3-bet. Again, as it has been said before, this is all situational. Your raise to isolate with a marginal hand is to get other marginal hands that are better than yours to fold. If that won't work, then tighten up your isolation standards.

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I agree, it is situational. However, since this is the micro limit forum, and any micro limit game worth playing in won't have players that fold around, I don't think it is really practical advice here.

In any micro game worth playing, there will be cold callers. Marginal hands simply don't have enough equity in my opinion.

[benkath1]

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I am not spiraling anywhere.

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Breakfast of champion spiralers across the poker nation.

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/2953/pht2000groupshot0vi.th.gif (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pht2000groupshot0vi.gif)

[milesdyson]

i hate this thread.

[TomBrooks]

don't be hatin'

[deception5]

You should almost always be raising more often after an 86% player limps in front of you, the only exception would be if there were a bunch of loose players behind you who were prone to cold calling. Let me ask you this, you say you wouldn't loosen up your game, what makes you think someone behind you is going to 3-bet because you are raising light? Don't you think they'd say ATo is offsuit trash and should be folded if it's raised ahead of them?

The more you play the more you should realize that it's not about a fixed set of hands that should be played a certain way. QTo is not offsuit trash, it's somewhat connected with good high card strength, probably better than 70% of the trash this guy is limping with. It does well against a few players so you raise to knock out the players behind you. Granted you shouldn't be raising every chance you get, but if MP2 limps 86% of the time I guarantee I'll raise QTo in MP3. The key is to play as many pots as you can with the worst players possible.

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Don't you think they'd say ATo is offsuit trash and should be folded if it's raised ahead of them?

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No, I DON'T think they'd say that in a typical party poker micro limit game.

*EDIT*

AND, if most of my table DOES think that way, I stand up and find a new table, because they are too tight.

[bozlax]

One, that's idiotic. Of course they're getting better odds if Fishy limps in front of you and then you raise...THERE'S MORE MONEY IN THE POT. But, they're getting worse odds than if you weren't in the pot at all. That's the point.

Two, this is about the third post for you in this thread where you've gone douchebag on somebody that's trying to converse with you on a civilized level. What was the problem, "jackass21221" too long to remember? This board survives because we don't get arbitrarily rude to each other; keep that in mind, or you won't find many people prepared to help you (which you clearly need).

[milesdyson]

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we don't get arbitrarily rude to each other;

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only occasionally

[bozlax]

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In any micro game worth playing, there will be cold callers. Marginal hands simply don't have enough equity in my opinion.

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[high road]You certainly shouldn't put yourself in positions where you don't feel comfortable. If stealing pots with marginal hands is a situation like that, then you shouldn't be making this play.[/high road]

In MY opinion:

There will be cold-callers in micro-limit games. The same guy that would limp J8o with no PFR may well cold-call when I raise my QTo. I like that.

In addition to loose fishies there are weak-tighties. These guys will frequently not recognize that I'm trying to isolate UberFish to my right and will fold ATo/AJo in the face of an EP PFR. I like that, too.

When I raise QTo the flop is going to come favorably (T63r) or not-unfavorably (J72r) often enough that I'm going to be able to make money with my superior postflop play (yeah, yeah, hahahahahaha, but stay with me, here), even in light of the times that I basically have to open-fold the flop (AJ4, monotone...actually, not a good example...AJ4, two-suited).

Oh, and just to clear up your obvious confusion, preflop play is not about equity.

[bozlax]

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i hate this thread.

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Werd.

(Actually, I'm with my in-laws for the weekend. This is a great stress-reliever for me, preventing me from punching somebody.)

[Greg J]

Yeah definately loosen up yr raising requirements. Don't go crazy. The QTo talk in this thread does not have enough context. If villian is utg then it's a muck. If he open limps in mp1 then it depends on the guys who act after you -- yeah reads on the guys to yr left matter here. If they are way loose then isolation plays won't work -- raise hands you don't mind being cold called as much. You can still raise lighter than usual (eg ATo), if eg they would cold call suited trash or any ace, but QTo is pushing it. If they fold to preflop raises more than they should then raise it up. If villian open limps in LP then mos def raise QTo.

[SlantNGo]

It's pretty simple. If the following 2 conditions are present at my game, I would gladly isolate with hands such as 66, A4s, and QJ.

1. The loose limper is on my right and is playing over 50% of his hands.
2. A raise is relatively likely to buy me the button.

Who cares if the big blind comes along? The big blind is a random hand, and you have position. You're going to be going up against a random hand (from the BB), and for a loose enough limper, what is almost a random hand. As long as your hand is not worse than theirs, you will profit because you play better postflop.

Not adjusting to a very loose limper on your right is passing up on a huge edge that you are being offered, as long as you are skilled enough to play correctly postflop.

[Nfinity]

Firstly, anyone who thinks that certain advice isn't pertinent because "It doesn't come up" doens't play enough for one thing. As for you only playing in "choice games", it's still good to look into. If I lived in a city without traffic lights it would probably still be correct to know that Green means go, Red means Stop, and Yellow means...Here comes Red. It's good to know in case I ever get into the situation of heing at a traffic light, and the information is there in case I ever move to a place where it is needed.

In a roundabout way I see your reasoning for for not isolating a loose limper or even raiser because you will get "cold callers anyway."

This all leads back to the advice that you should be aware of the tendencies of the people behind you. But more than that you can't know what they are holding all the time or their liklihood to call a raise at any given time. Plus it causes mistakes anyway. Think about all the hands you can correctly cold call a raise with. A lot of the times if your opponents calling your raises don't have those hands, they should be raising you or folding. When they fail to you someone makes money, usually you.

But wait, how can we make money by not winning the hand? Well, that's another concept you will have to grasp.

BTW great advice Miles and its good to see you back.

[Nfinity]

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2. A raise is relatively likely to buy me the button.

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Those of us who play primarily 6max know how important this concept is, sometimes its the most important.

[deception5]

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Don't you think they'd say ATo is offsuit trash and should be folded if it's raised ahead of them?


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No, I DON'T think they'd say that in a typical party poker micro limit game.

*EDIT*

AND, if most of my table DOES think that way, I stand up and find a new table, because they are too tight.

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I have to disagree, I think a lot of people would throw ATo away after a raise.

[bottomset]

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Quote:
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Don't you think they'd say ATo is offsuit trash and should be folded if it's raised ahead of them?


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No, I DON'T think they'd say that in a typical party poker micro limit game.

*EDIT*

AND, if most of my table DOES think that way, I stand up and find a new table, because they are too tight.

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I have to disagree, I think a lot of people would throw ATo away after a raise.

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I'll often 3bet it if its a CO openraise, and occasionally if its a hijack open .. but most of the time its a fold