Open raising in later positions with lesser hands...

Hi TPTers. First let me say, wow. What a resource this forum, and the books from TPT, are. Invaluable!

I have been lurking around, soaking up every tidbit of knowledge I can, reading hand critiques, and so much other info for the last few months. As a result, I have learned so much that has made me a better poker player. All I can say is, Wow. Thanks!

Anyway, I was reading in the Poker Theory forum the other day and someone posted a screen shot of this PT stats after more than 37k hands. I only have about 7k hands in my PT, and I am playing much smaller stakes than he is, I am sure, but our numbers are very close except one. Pre-flop raise. His was around 19+, and mine is 6.6 and getting better. If I filter for later sessions, it gets up a bit over 7.

Then this morning I read this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3311173&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) thread. In one of the later posts someone asks about open raising with T9s and the answer was:

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Quote:
Why do you prefer to openraise instead of open limp T9s?



position, position, position. If everyone folds to you in MP, you probably have the best hand. Raise while you are ahead.


-D

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I know I don't open raise enough in later postions with smaller hands, I just don't feel comfortable doing that, but... I know I need to work on that.

Now, my question. What is the lower limit you feel comfortable open raising in what position? In the example, it was MP with T9s on a loose 3/6 live table. I play mainly 1/2 with occaisional forays into 2/4, both full. Generally, I will open raise strictly according to the SSHE opening hands chart. I use the loose chart mostly, but back off some opening hands on a tighter table, so my opening standards are somewhere between the tight and loose chart.

I guess T9s in MP on a very loose table is ok, but what about 1/2 or 2/4 online?

Thanks for any help, it's amazing the amount of help I get from just reading what you all post.

--Steve

[nomadtla]

There's some good info here (not from me) about situations for open limping, or in other words the few times you shouldn't open raise. Check the two links on the first page for other good stuff. I'm at about 11+ but I'm a lag. 9 is what the FAQ says to go for (which is about right), but 6-7 is deffinately not aggro enough. Just my two cents.

GOOD STUFF (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=3052416&fpart =1&PHPSESSID=)

[Saint_D]

Thanks for quoting me. Too bad you had to go on and ask "Why?". I didn't elaborate because this is a complicated question.

So much depends on the table texture and more importantly the players to your left. Once you get past MP3 you shouldn't be limping in. There are two reasons.

1. You know that no one before you had a hand. You also know that there number of people left to play mean that the odds are in your favor those people don't have a hand either.

2. You are taking a shot at stealing the blinds. This doesn't have to succeed much for it to be a good play. Add that to the times you get a caller and outplay them post-flop and this is a good move.

Lets say you are on a typical table with 4 players to your left. The other players fold to you. You look at the stats you have. There is a 40/2 calling station, 18/5 rock and you don't have a read on the blinds.

If you limp, the calling station will call. The rock will fold and the blinds will come along. This isn't the best scenario for your semi-decent hand. Worse, you give the rock a chance to raise on a better hand if he is position aware.

If you raise the same hand, you very well may buy the button. There is a strong chance (25%+) you will simply take the blinds. If the calling station follows you in, he is making a mistake and you can outplay him post-flop. If the rock calls or raises, proceed with caution to the flop.

When you are folded to in the later positions, the chance you can outright buy the blinds added to the chance you have the best hand and will win the pot make raising the best move many kinds of hand. You really prefer to have an Ace, King or two cards that are 9+. Pocket pairs are terrific. Lowish suited connectors are not so good.

If you think the blinds will probably fold, raising the button when it's folded to you with any two cards is probably correct.

If you limp in late-mid position, a good player will try to isolate you with a raise. Otherwise you won't get the blinds to fold and they may hit a draw on the flop. You won't know where you are on the flop and you will have bad relative position.

-D

Thanks, there is some good stuff there.

I have known for some time I should try to get my PFR up, just wasn't sure how to go about it without being a total maniac pre-flop. Then I read some posts about open raising with what I thought of as limping hands. Needless to say, I knew I had to work on that.

Thanks again, that stuff will help.

First, sorry this got so long.

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Thanks for quoting me.

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No problem. It was good advice, and I needed to hear it.

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Too bad you had to go on and ask "Why?". I didn't elaborate because this is a complicated question.

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I kinda knew it would be, but I am truly trying to understand the game and to play better poker. I appreciate you taking the time to make this post, it helps TONS!

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So much depends on the table texture and more importantly the players to your left.

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I have discovered this, but in relation to poker in general. I guess (and it makes sense that it is so) it carries on to a better understanding of the game.

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Once you get past MP3 you shouldn't be limping in.

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This is what I needed to hear, plus the following:

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There are two reasons.

1. You know that no one before you had a hand. You also know that there number of people left to play mean that the odds are in your favor those people don't have a hand either.

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This is so fundamental I don't know why I didn't think of it myself. In my defense, I have only been playing online poker, and getting serious about it, and playing "numbers poker", since about the first week of July. Prior to that, it's been the old Thursday night dealers choice games with a bunch of old farts chewing stogies, drinking beer, eating stale chips and peanuts, 7 stud, 5 draw, and every now and then, 5 stud.

Didn't need to know odds, everyone knew everybody else so well, everyone knew what everybody else had by the way they bet, belched, farted, or held their cards. You've seen these games in sitcoms on TV, I am sure.

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2. You are taking a shot at stealing the blinds. This doesn't have to succeed much for it to be a good play. Add that to the times you get a caller and outplay them post-flop and this is a good move.

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I have just (in the last couple of weeks) started trying to steal blinds, but only from the CO or Button. I guess I didn't carry it far enough around the table.

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Lets say you are on a typical table with 4 players to your left. The other players fold to you. You look at the stats you have. There is a 40/2 calling station, 18/5 rock and you don't have a read on the blinds.

If you limp, the calling station will call. The rock will fold and the blinds will come along. This isn't the best scenario for your semi-decent hand. Worse, you give the rock a chance to raise on a better hand if he is position aware.

If you raise the same hand, you very well may buy the button. There is a strong chance (25%+) you will simply take the blinds. If the calling station follows you in, he is making a mistake and you can outplay him post-flop. If the rock calls or raises, proceed with caution to the flop.

When you are folded to in the later positions, the chance you can outright buy the blinds added to the chance you have the best hand and will win the pot make raising the best move many kinds of hand. You really prefer to have an Ace, King or two cards that are 9+. Pocket pairs are terrific. Lowish suited connectors are not so good.

If you think the blinds will probably fold, raising the button when it's folded to you with any two cards is probably correct.

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Again, this is just the sort of stuff I have been doing, at least in the last couple of weeks, I guess I just need to carry it around the table to MP, huh?

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If you limp in late-mid position, a good player will try to isolate you with a raise. Otherwise you won't get the blinds to fold and they may hit a draw on the flop. You won't know where you are on the flop and you will have bad relative position.

-D

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I can't thank you enough for this post. It makes me see where I just didn't carry a concept far enough and explains some things.

I am re-reading SSHE right now. After the first reading, I could not believe how much my game improved. I would be playing along and suddenly, there right before me was a perfect example of one of the concepts in SSHE, a light bulb would come on, and I knew exactly what to do.

This whole ride has been like this for me. I see things when I am playing that I have just read about on TPT, too.

This site has been an amazing resource. I am so glad I found it.

[benkath1]

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Thanks for quoting me. Too bad you had to go on and ask "Why?". I didn't elaborate because this is a complicated question.

So much depends on the table texture and more importantly the players to your left. Once you get past MP3 you shouldn't be limping in. There are two reasons.

1. You know that no one before you had a hand. You also know that there number of people left to play mean that the odds are in your favor those people don't have a hand either.

2. You are taking a shot at stealing the blinds. This doesn't have to succeed much for it to be a good play. Add that to the times you get a caller and outplay them post-flop and this is a good move.

Lets say you are on a typical table with 4 players to your left. The other players fold to you. You look at the stats you have. There is a 40/2 calling station, 18/5 rock and you don't have a read on the blinds.

If you limp, the calling station will call. The rock will fold and the blinds will come along. This isn't the best scenario for your semi-decent hand. Worse, you give the rock a chance to raise on a better hand if he is position aware.

If you raise the same hand, you very well may buy the button. There is a strong chance (25%+) you will simply take the blinds. If the calling station follows you in, he is making a mistake and you can outplay him post-flop. If the rock calls or raises, proceed with caution to the flop.

When you are folded to in the later positions, the chance you can outright buy the blinds added to the chance you have the best hand and will win the pot make raising the best move many kinds of hand. You really prefer to have an Ace, King or two cards that are 9+. Pocket pairs are terrific. Lowish suited connectors are not so good.

If you think the blinds will probably fold, raising the button when it's folded to you with any two cards is probably correct.

If you limp in late-mid position, a good player will try to isolate you with a raise. Otherwise you won't get the blinds to fold and they may hit a draw on the flop. You won't know where you are on the flop and you will have bad relative position.

-D

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nh
You get my digest nomination.