Why Live Is Better Vs Internet Poker-My First Steps To Discipline

[grandgnu]

Over 13K hands of Omaha Hi/Lo online my poker tracker stats show I'm making 4.02bb/100 hands. Not too shabby.

I have a good understanding of 7-stud, stud hi/lo, Omaha Hi/lo and NL Hold 'Em. My game has continued to improve.

I have a nice rakeback deal on Empire as well. So why am I going to cease playing online for awhile you ask?

Playing online presents itself with a variety of problems for someone with my emotional makeup:

1. It is far too easy to play "just a little" over your bankroll

2. It is far too easy to play TOO much poker. Lose a tournament? Just start another.....and another.....and another.

3. You aren't able to "read" players except through betting patterns.

I have improved my game quite a bit over the past year, and I've kept records that show I'm winning. But I'm also worn out, and not winning as much as I could/should.

I've been toying with a semi-pro career, where I don't depend on poker to pay the bills, but give it a shot to see how well I can do.

I can handle bad beats a lot better than I used to. The problem is that when you play online, you're playing A LOT more poker than you would playing live. This results in you suffering bad beats much more frequently. In the course of three tournaments in a row I had A/10 vs. A/7, A/10 vs. A/8 and A/Q vs. A/2 sooted and I lost each time, including the A/2 hitting his 2 AND his flush.

Yes, I know bad beats happen, I've laid them on other players and had them laid on me plenty of times, live and online. The problem is that I now realize that emotionally I cannot handle so many beats in so many tournaments. You play in a field of 170 or 290 and finish in the top 20 or 30 but make a piddling sum, since all the money goes to the top 3 players.

The reason I was going to go semi-pro online was because I could get rakeback, play whatever games and limits whenever I wanted, use software to track myself and other players, and not have to drive 100 miles to Foxwoods where their rake is ridiculous!

Luckily for me, I'm realizing fairly early in the game that I just can't deal emotionally with that many bad beats, because I'm playing too much poker. I'm happy with how I'm playing, I'm not happy with the small profit and constant suckouts.

I figure by playing live, I'll only be playing once a week, maybe once every two weeks. I'll be more focused (very easy to get distracted by other things when playing online), and I won't be playing 3 or more tournaments in a single day.

For those with a little Helmuth in you, please consider this option. Being depressed and pissy, no matter how good of a player you are, is never a profitable or healthy state to be in.

It is interesting that all of the problems you relate with playing on the internet center around a lack of disicpline.

I think you are correct in saying it is much easier online to blow through your bankroll, play too many tournaments, take more shots, etc. If you cannot control these urges then you definetly should not be playing online poker at all. For realizing this, and changing your habits, kudos.

However, I have found that beats are much harder to take live than online. I have played about 50k hands in the last fivce weeks and there were days that were just terrible, but I cannot remember ONE bad beat I've taken during that time. In fact, the closest thing to a bad beat I can remember is someone spiking four of a kind on the river, and the only reason I remember it is because a friend was watching and we burst out laughing. The other detials from that hand I couldn't remember to save my life.

This is something I developed after years of playing online, and I think it is a trait that one can only develop over time and many many thousands of hands.

However, when I was in Vegas this summer I found it much harder to handle bad beats. After a beat you might wait an hour to play another hand, and you are left to sit and think over what you could have done/how shitty a day you are having. This was just my experience, but I believe I had read a similar thing in Microbob's blog.

The positives to playing live is that this extra time you have to think about each hand VASTLY IMPROVES ONES POKER PLAY. My game improved so much I couldn't believe the transformation over those five weeks. My suggestion is to bring a small notebook and pad and write down interesting hands you play in, and think about/discuss these hands with people after your session.

Good luck,
Jonny

[grandgnu]

Thanks for the response Jonny. Online it's just too easy for me to start up another tournament, and another. Live play is a bit more limited, and I have to consider a 100-mile drive back home as well.

With gas prices, that will suck, but luckily I only commute one minute to work, so it shouldn't hurt me too badly to play there once per week or every other week.

I've played 7 of Foxwoods weekly tournies, placing in the money 3 of those times, twice being at the final table (7th and 9th places). I'm still waiting for my "big" win, where I can cash in the top two for a few thousand. One of these days I suppose.

And I'm still familiar with bad beats in live play. Played an Act I the last time I was at Foxwoods (satellite to try and win into another satellite, to try and win into another satellite, to try and win into the WPT event)

I limped with A/10 and another player limped with pocket 8's. The flop was 4/6/A and I bet out, since no one had raised I figured no one had a stronger Ace. He called and spiked an 8 on the turn and I doubled him up.

Then I get short-stacked and push with my A/10 suited (yes, I know A/10 is NOT a strong hand, but given their structure and my chips, I needed to make a stand). I get two callers and flop the nut flush, looking good to double up. Flop was K/7/6 of clubs. Turn is another King, now I know I'm in trouble, one of the players bets out and the other folds. I know I'm ahead, but my opponent has outs, he shows K/Q of spades. River pairs the 6's and I'm out, what can ya do?

The players at Foxwoods are TERRIBLE for the most part, so that helps, they're even worse than online (I especially love playing against Betty at the Omaha Hi/Lo 5/10 with kill game) Ship it!

Still, there are a number of regulars and some sharks that troll around as well, so it's not all easy going. I prefer playing live anyway, rather than staring at a computer screen.

I understand completely where you are coming from. I think at this point you are going to benifit greatly from this decision.

However, it concerns me that you are still at the point of sharing "bad beat" stories in your response. I know you were trying to make a point that the players are terrible, but you need to get at the point where you are saying "The players are terrible, but I got knocked out...what could I do?" Instead of "The players are terrible, for instance one guy sucked out one me when..."

I know you post a lot on pokerace's blog, and I think it's a perfect example about how NOT to think of poker. It was unforunate the way he hit a very prolonged negative streak but it was the responses to this streak that bothered me the most.

Seeing your reponses in his blog I know you are "above" where he is in terms of your thought process towards poker...but the bad beats you take need to be filtered through your brain quickly and without emotion.

On a side note I am only 70 miles from Foxwoods and live in Derby, CT. Where are you from?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand completely where you are coming from. I think at this point you are going to benifit greatly from this decision.

However, it concerns me that you are still at the point of sharing "bad beat" stories in your response. I know you were trying to make a point that the players are terrible, but you need to get at the point where you are saying "The players are terrible, but I got knocked out...what could I do?" Instead of "The players are terrible, for instance one guy sucked out one me when..."

I know you post a lot on pokerace's blog, and I think it's a perfect example about how NOT to think of poker. It was unforunate the way he hit a very prolonged negative streak but it was the responses to this streak that bothered me the most.

Seeing your reponses in his blog I know you are "above" where he is in terms of your thought process towards poker...but the bad beats you take need to be filtered through your brain quickly and without emotion.

On a side note I am only 70 miles from Foxwoods and live in Derby, CT. Where are you from?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sharing the story because you had talked about how you felt the beats more live than online. I'm just saying that I understand that internet poker isn't "rigged" against me, since I've had plenty of runner-runner suckouts in live poker as well (and I've gotten in with the worst of it and hit my miracle cards on the river a fair share of times as well)

I don't know that in my stories my opponents made very big mistakes. The ace-high flop with two cards lower than an 8, no raises pre-flop, my opponent with pocket 8's might think that I'm just on a draw or bluff, since maybe he assumes if I had an ace I would've raised pre-flop.

The K/Q suited was just unlucky for me, don't know if I would've called the all-in given the amount of chips it was, but he did and it didn't work out, such is life.

As far as PokerAce goes, I like the guy. I think that he could do very well, and that he could probably handle it emotionally. His problems were:

1. Underbankrolled/not enough savings

2. Focusing too much on the short-term results

3. Depending on poker for income

As far as Foxwoods goes, I'm up in Gardner, MA, about 100 miles from the casino.

I played the 7-stud event of the New England Poker Classic with 354 players and finished up around 120th two years ago I believe. The chip leader with an Ace showing raised pre-flop and I found a King on board and A/K in the hole. Figured him for a steal, I re-raised and everyone got out of the way. He, of course, had the other Ace.

Last spring I played in the multi-play event, where you have to win your table to move on to day 2. Foxwoods decided at the last minute to change the payouts. Originally it was that you'd place 1st at your table, move on to day 2 and half the field on day 2 would get paid (about 800 bucks guaranteed for your 240 investment)

They then said they were going to pay about 100 places if the event filled up. This meant that most of the players would be making a 20-40 dollar profit over their buy-in, not factoring in the money you spent on lodging, food, etc.

That kinda ticked me off. But, I played well, made a couple mistakes that I learned from (this was prior to my reading Caro's Book of Poker Tells and Harrington on Hold 'Em Volumes I & II)

I took the chip lead early and started pushing people around. Everyone limped the first hand, I'm last to act with A/J of hearts and I re-raise, get called by a number of players, including a Q/10 of clubs. Flop is Queen-high but with two hearts, I lead out and get called. Turn is my heart and I'm concerned my opponent might have two pair, plus I figure if I push he won't believe I have the nut flush (why would I push the nuts?) He says "well, I'm going to play the 1pm anyway, I call" and I take him out.

Then there's a raise pre-flop and I hold 10/10 and smooth-call (bunch of other callers. Flop is 10-high and I take it down.

My mistake came when I called a raise with A/J offsuit. The flop was Jack-high and my opponent bet weakly, I re-raised his 200 to 600 and he insta-pushed. Everything in my head told me to fold, he's got Queens, he's got Kings, but I didn't listen to myself. He actually had pocket Jacks, and I was back down to my starting chip stack.

He tried to steal later on with J/5 sooted, I found 9/9 short-stacked and pushed and doubled up. I was still relatively short-stacked, with blinds at 100/200 and I had about 1200 left (again, this is before I read Harrington on Hold 'Em). I found A/Q and just raised to 600, when I should have pushed.

Another short-stack who had me covered pushed with pocket 6's and I obviously called and didn't win the coin flip.

I learned from those two mistakes, and I've studied the game and read a lot more since then. I know I still have plenty to learn and plenty of improving to do.

A 2+2er that I know likes my play and offered to stake me, but I turned it down. It would be too easy for me to play above my head on someone elses money. And I'd rather earn my place in larger buy-in events than just get in easy with little to no risk to my own funds.

I'm playing the multi-play event this Fall and the ghetto $500 NL event. Depending on if I win any money, I may play some other events. And I'm going to try and satellite into the main event. Hope to see you there.

[grandgnu]

Stop the presses! Since I'm still waiting for my rakeback to arrive (usually within the first week of the new month) I decided to play a couple sit n' go's, to pass the time at work (on an overnight double, 3-11/11-7)

I came in 2nd and 1st place, so I think it's safe to say that I'm a poker god and I can't possibly quit online poker now! I mean, I placed that high in the money in TWO 10-player sit n' go's........IN A ROW!

You just can't argue with that track record baby, ESPECIALLY at the $10+$1 sit n' go's, w00t!

I'm off to sell my car, my custom/self-built computer, the cat and my fiance', then I'll dump that all online into my poker bankroll and start 12-tabling the $0.50/$1 tables and kill those suckas! Look out, I'm taking the poker world by stoooooorrrrmmm!!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop the presses! Since I'm still waiting for my rakeback to arrive (usually within the first week of the new month) I decided to play a couple sit n' go's, to pass the time at work (on an overnight double, 3-11/11-7)

I came in 2nd and 1st place, so I think it's safe to say that I'm a poker god and I can't possibly quit online poker now! I mean, I placed that high in the money in TWO 10-player sit n' go's........IN A ROW!

You just can't argue with that track record baby, ESPECIALLY at the $10+$1 sit n' go's, w00t!

I'm off to sell my car, my custom/self-built computer, the cat and my fiance', then I'll dump that all online into my poker bankroll and start 12-tabling the $0.50/$1 tables and kill those suckas! Look out, I'm taking the poker world by stoooooorrrrmmm!!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Busted out 50th or so in the turbo tourney out of 130 players. Played another sit n' go and finished 3rd. Took the chip lead at one point, caught K/K and raised instead of pushed, hoping to get action, got re-raised and pushed the pot-committed player all-in. He had A/Q, looked fine to me, but he hit his Ace and Queen and I was down to 110 in chips and didn't stage a newsworthy comeback.

So, 1st, 2nd and 3rd, all money finishes, can't complain. But still going to take my money out when rakeback arrives, I can already feel I'm playing more poker than I should right now, just too easy.

[StLouisMike]

So you both agree that live players are softer in general? I have been thinking about switching to just live play (never been to a casino) because of the discipline factor. I am a much more disciplined player live. I believe alot of my change in play live is because of pride and fear of embarassment. I never jaw anyone due to a bad call, play fewer hands, and tend to make better decisions. I also seem to respect raises more live because I can see physically who is raising. I'd like to hear what Dr. Al thinks about this.

Mike

[Onaflag]

[ QUOTE ]
because of the discipline factor

[/ QUOTE ]

That sums it up perfectly for me. When I used to play more online than B&M, there was the booze, TV, Internet, wife, kid, etc. Too many distractions. Online may be good for some people, but not me. B&M rules!

Onaflag........

[KidPokerX]

grand - you have an awesome sense of humor.
keep it up, lol!

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
grand - you have an awesome sense of humor.
keep it up, lol!

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif What are you talking about? Are you denying my three-in-a-row money finishes? I mean, I expect to be able to accomplish that 97% of the time, so that means if I play sit n' go's exclusively, I should pass Bill Gates on the Forbes 500 within just a few months. God I love Internet poker!

[grandgnu]

Still waiting for my rakeback to arrive. In the meantime, I've played six sit n' gos:

1st: twice
2nd: three times
3rd: once

That's in the money all six times! Someone has definetely let Empire know my plans. I should just play a $100 sit n' go, since I can't possibly lose at this point!

My third place, I raised with K/K and got re-raised by A/Q, so I obviously pushed. He hit an Ace and a Queen on the flop.

And one of my 2nd place finishes the guy min-raised with 10/J and I pushed with A/Q and he hit two 10's. Then I catch 2/2 and push and he has A/9 and hits two 9's.

I've been playing extremely well, getting my money in with the best hand the majority of the time, causing my opponents to make mistakes. It feels really great, but I'm still going to remain disciplined and pull the money out when the time comes. Still too easy to play TOO much poker online.

I can't friggin wait for the WPT to come through Foxwoods, now if I can only find the time to satellite my way into the main event, that would be an experience and a half, w00t!

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

internet poker is FAR beter than live for countless reasons (all money related). Its not even close.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
internet poker is FAR beter than live for countless reasons (all money related). Its not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I understand the benefits:

* any game, any limit, anytime

* Rakeback

* No tipping

* Save On Gas

* Save on Fooed

* Play in my underwear while I scratch myself

I'm saying, for me, that Internet poker is TOO easy to play TOO much. And for me, TOO much poker seems to be a bad thing. So if I just play live, once a week or every two weeks, that will allow me to stay focused on other things in life, instead of playing poker in all my spare time.

[autobet]

[ QUOTE ]
Over 13K hands of Omaha Hi/Lo online my poker tracker stats show I'm making 4.02bb/100 hands. Not too shabby.

[/ QUOTE ]
Impressive Results...should make you want to play more and budget a regular income making you officially semi-pro.



[/ QUOTE ] The problem is that when you play online, you're playing A LOT more poker than you would playing live. This results in you suffering bad beats much more frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course you will have more bad beats since you are playing something like 8x as many hands an hour if you are four tabling. On the other hand your variance will even out 8x quicker. This means instead of loosing for two months during a bad B&M run, you will have a losing week or two online.

It's not really an either or decision. You can play both B&M and online. Good luck.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
internet poker is FAR beter than live for countless reasons (all money related). Its not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I understand the benefits:

* any game, any limit, anytime

* Rakeback

* No tipping

* Save On Gas

* Save on Fooed

* Play in my underwear while I scratch myself

I'm saying, for me, that Internet poker is TOO easy to play TOO much. And for me, TOO much poker seems to be a bad thing. So if I just play live, once a week or every two weeks, that will allow me to stay focused on other things in life, instead of playing poker in all my spare time.

[/ QUOTE ]

you forgot the 2 most important ones:

-more hands / hour (a lot more)
-multitabling

[LImitPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm also worn out, and not winning as much as I could/should.


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm making 4.02bb/100 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

OK so right now your making about 7bb/hour assuming your single tabling, plus rakeback

You think you can make more than this playing live? After paying for the commute, getting on the waiting list and paying more rake?

After reading some more of the posts in the thread I take back waht I said. If it is strictly a money issue you will make more online, but if your burning out and have more fun playing live then go for whatever makes you happy

[bernie]

Interesting post.

Just remember, the bad streaks that you get over in a week online can last months live. Many months. This can make for a very depressed and pissy mood.

That said, I prefer live to online.

b

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]

1. It is far too easy to play "just a little" over your bankroll

2. It is far too easy to play TOO much poker. Lose a tournament? Just start another.....and another.....and another.


[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading here.

[grandgnu]

It's not necessarily a money issue, although I do play mostly for profit. I'd say 80-90% of the reason I play is to win money. The other percentage is for fun and to challenge myself.

The issue is that I do not feel I am disciplined enough to handle online poker. I understand that it has so many benefits over live poker (although I do love me some Mike Caro's Poker Tells for live play)

But again, I don't feel disciplined enough, right now, playing online. I've done well, then jumped up in limits when my bankroll wasn't ready, and played scared.

The money you have online doesn't feel as "real" as when you play live, so it's easy to devalue it and play in cash games or tournaments that aren't appropriate for your bankroll. I know plenty of people out there can handle themselves just fine online.

But, for right now, I fear that I am not that disciplined. I'll be better served playing live for now, and try to work on improving my discipline so that I don't burn myself out four-tabling or playing multiple tournaments throughout an entire day.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not necessarily a money issue, although I do play mostly for profit. I'd say 80-90% of the reason I play is to win money. The other percentage is for fun and to challenge myself.

The issue is that I do not feel I am disciplined enough to handle online poker. I understand that it has so many benefits over live poker (although I do love me some Mike Caro's Poker Tells for live play)

But again, I don't feel disciplined enough, right now, playing online. I've done well, then jumped up in limits when my bankroll wasn't ready, and played scared.

The money you have online doesn't feel as "real" as when you play live, so it's easy to devalue it and play in cash games or tournaments that aren't appropriate for your bankroll. I know plenty of people out there can handle themselves just fine online.

But, for right now, I fear that I am not that disciplined. I'll be better served playing live for now, and try to work on improving my discipline so that I don't burn myself out four-tabling or playing multiple tournaments throughout an entire day.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have gambling problems and have found a way to control your urges, more power to you.

If you think that online play is more profitable you're flat out wrong. Your maximum potential profit in a single game per hand is a USELESS stat. If you're playing for money the only number that matters is how much you can earn per hour. The internet always wins at this except in the very rare, very easily known exceptions.

If you're playing as a business, this is the only legitimate view you can have. This may be incorrect for YOU, because of personal issues. This is not good advice for anyone else. Finally, what do you mean by you don't value the money? Very few people can play very well and understand the true value of a dollar.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have gambling problems and have found a way to control your urges, more power to you.

If you think that online play is more profitable you're flat out wrong. Your maximum potential profit in a single game per hand is a USELESS stat. If you're playing for money the only number that matters is how much you can earn per hour. The internet always wins at this except in the very rare, very easily known exceptions.

If you're playing as a business, this is the only legitimate view you can have. This may be incorrect for YOU, because of personal issues. This is not good advice for anyone else. Finally, what do you mean by you don't value the money? Very few people can play very well and understand the true value of a dollar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I have an alcohol problem officer......I'm all outta alcohol!

I don't believe I have a gambling problem. I've been careful to manage my finances well, to not committ my money for bills into my poker fund. And I'm not out donking it up, charging everything to a credit card. If I can't afford to pay for it with cash, I usually don't buy it (except something like a Car)

I'm not playing as a business, I'm not playing full-time. I consider myself "semi-pro". This means I don't rely on poker to pay the bills. It's more than a hobby, since I'm trying to win money at it. And thus far this year, my records show I'm ahead a few thousand (live and online games), so that's nice. But it's not enough to pay the bills.

The issue is, I have a marriage coming up on October 1st. While we don't have kids, we still lead lives outside of poker. I work for a living, as does Jenn. Online poker is consuming TOO much of my free time right now. If it was my sole source of income, that would be a different story.

But since it's just side action for me right now, while I compile statistics (since I don't want to rush out and quit my day job without having the data to back up my being a winning player, and the savings and bankroll to handle such a lifestyle), I really shouldn't be playing as much as I have.

So if I can get myself under control, and not be tempted to just jump right back into another tournament after I bust out, but manage my time more wisely, I'll be ready for online poker again.

I finally lost a sit n' go. My A/J ran into pocket Aces. But then I played another a few hours later (well, that's a bit better discipline than I've had) and I schooled those suckas and snagged another first.

First: three times

Second: three times

Third: one time

Out Of The Money: one time

Too bad it's such a small sample size, ah well. Where is my friggin rakeback, I NEED to get this money out of the account before I do something stupid and start four-tabling the $100 sit n' go's!!!! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Oh yeah, and as far as my not "valueing" money. What I meant was this: money in an online account is just a click, it's there, it grows, it shrinks. But you don't feel it, you don't hold it in your hands. When you lose it, it doesn't feel the same as when you lose it live, because it's just numbers online, it's not tangible. So it becomes easier for you to lose the money by playing over your bankroll, and then not have it bother you as much as it would in a live situation. At least, for me that is.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I would really recommend you not play, and I don't mean this out of any form of spite. Poker is such stressfull game that causes even the most dry, rational people to act like idiots. Someone with a problem from square one is walking a tightrope between doomed for failure and marginal winner. I assume you'll ignore this, and I wasted my time writing it, c'est la vie.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I would really recommend you not play, and I don't mean this out of any form of spite. Poker is such stressfull game that causes even the most dry, rational people to act like idiots. Someone with a problem from square one is walking a tightrope between doomed for failure and marginal winner. I assume you'll ignore this, and I wasted my time writing it, c'est la vie.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I understand you're trying to help, and I appreciate that, do you believe that someone with an issue is completely beyond reproach?

I think it's great that I recognize the issue that I have playing online (again, because I work outside of poker, that is why online poker is too much for me right now). And I'm taking the steps to get myself under control.