Coordinated board and lots of action...would you call this turn?

[lautzutao]

MP3 is LAGGY(47/17/2.5 over 200+ hands)
UTG is unknown

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ??</font>

If I was positive all my outs were alive, I wouldn't be sweating this hand so much...but I could be drawing dead already with so much action after my raise. Opinions?

[jaxUp]

I think a fold is the play of choice. Even if you're not drawing dead, it will sometimes be a chop with a hand like 78 or a made straight

[RandBriscoe]

Pre-flop: Ok I guess. For me, it would have to be a particularly good table.

Flop: I like the bet. MP3's raise behind sucks.

Turn: I don't understand the raise... I probably fold when it gets back to me... You're probably drawing to a split at best...

[billy51]

I think you have to fold this pre-flop from MP2 after only one limper, even at a good table. You just don't have the odds to play and there are 5 potential raisers behind you.

I think you have to call here after UTG caps the turn. You are getting 8-1 after MP3 calls plus probably another bet or two on the river if you connect. Sure, your straight outs are not always good and you might chop sometimes, but you are getting enough overlay, since you are a little better than 5-1 to hit.

[Pylos]

Hrm, interresting hand. I think preflop is something I would personally call, because I like playing suited one gappers - they have been good to me in the past.

On the flop, I like the bet, but the raise by MP3 gets me a little worried, I think I would call here to see if my hand improves.

The Turn raise kind of baffles me a bit. Why raise a hand that just gave your opponents one of your draws? I think I would fold in this spot personally, considering that UTG is unknown. If it was MP3 in the position of UTG I would say the raise is correct. But I can't see any reason to do it in this position.

[aK13]

I don't understand the turn bet.

[chiachu]

id fold the turn, since it doesnt like 6/8 are likely out, and a rivered straight can easily be chopped or lose to a boat.

edit: forgot to mention that id only call (not raise) the turn when action first hits me.

Unfortunately I think you have to fold here.

[lautzutao]

I made the turn-bet raise to increase my winning chances... I see the first player opening the betting as probably having a better hand than me. I need to try to push out the other two players behind me if possible. I can't fold because the pot is too big, and calling really gains me nothing...hence the raise. It potentially drives out someone drawing to the gutshot draw above me(someone holding a 10 or a 3), or possibly pushing out 2 pair here. Giving them 5 to 1 is better than giving them 9 to 1(what they'd be getting if I just called)

Unfortunately it didn't work that way and I was left in the rather precarious position I was left in. Possibly calling 2 more bets when I could now(following the betting patterns) be drawing dead to every out...

*EDIT* As for the flop bet, I made it specifically BECAUSE I knew the LAG would raise. If he had any piece of this board, he'd raise and possibly push out the other players, allowing me to go heads up against a loose player with a very strong drawing hand and his belief that I've been playing fairly tight at the table. How could he possibly put me on 86s? My implied odds against him heads up are potentially staggering.

[Bodhi]

You really over-valued your draw in such a small pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (7.20 BB) 6 (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF??

[lautzutao]

I'm not overvaluing my draw. I'm evaluating my 2 pair AND a draw to a 1 card straight and a full house. Is it better that I just call down? No way I'm folding this hand here with players behind, and I think calling is too weak here. Is it better that I call and let 2 behind me call as well and rip off their miracle card, or try to improve my equity?

[milesdyson]

hey dude, you have to look at what happened in this hand.

utg check called two bets on the flop and is now leading into the field when the draw completing 6 hits the turn. what do you think he has that you should raise against? you never have the best hand here.

edit in responce to your edit: therefore by raising and knocking others out you are getting the field closer to [you] and [a better hand]. since you are still drawing, you want people to be staying in. you are not doing your equity any good by raising against a better hand.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
hey dude, you have to look at what happened in this hand.

utg check called two bets on the flop and is now leading into the field when the draw completing 6 hits the turn. what do you think he has that you should raise against? you never have the best hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that I am behind to UTG, but what about the other 2 players? I'm not talking about winning the hand outright, I'm talking about increasing my chances of winning.

What did UTG hit here with an 8 falling? He might have had a pair of 8's and I'm drawing dead already. He also could have drawn to a straight, which I can still draw out on with a better straight(if he hit the low end) or a full house if I spike a 6 or a 7. Why not try to increase the chances of that occuring by eliminating other players that might be drawing as well?

[milesdyson]

utg has 66 or 98 usually when he plays the hand like this.

also think about what you're saying.

[ QUOTE ]
He also could have drawn to a straight, which I can still draw out on with a better straight(if he hit the low end) or a full house if I spike a 6 or a 7. Why not try to increase the chances of that occuring by eliminating other players that might be drawing as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
if you're already admitting you need to outdraw UTG and there's only one card to come... you either outdraw him and win the hand, or you don't outdraw him and you lose the hand. your hope is that you can get other players to pay behind you as you attempt to outdraw UTG. the only thing that changes with them out of the pot is that the pot size is smaller when you do outdraw...

[Shillx]

Why did you bet the flop? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[milesdyson]

oesduh /images/graemlins/smile.gif

it is true, 6 handed makes a flop bet a sad proposition.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
oesduh /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell yeah make the pot 15 SB and I'd bet the flop with a LAG behind me. Not when it is 6 SB.

[numeri]

I wouldn't play this pre-flop, but I know some would. On the flop, I know you feel like you have the nice OESD and BDFD, but the board is paired. I think betting the flop is a mistake. And the turn card actually hurts you instead of giving you more outs. I might call the bet from UTG, but certainly not 2 more to me.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you bet the flop? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
*EDIT* As for the flop bet, I made it specifically BECAUSE I knew the LAG would raise. If he had any piece of this board, he'd raise and possibly push out the other players, allowing me to go heads up against a loose player with a very strong drawing hand and his belief that I've been playing fairly tight at the table. How could he possibly put me on 86s? My implied odds against him heads up are potentially staggering.

[/ QUOTE ]

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
oesduh /images/graemlins/smile.gif

it is true, 6 handed makes a flop bet a sad proposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have more than an OESD here. I have a backdoor flush draw and 2 live cards for 2 pair. Giving myself 1.5 outs for my flush draw, and maybe 1 out conservatively for hitting 2 pair with a crappy kicker, I have 11 outs. If I can get the LAG heads-up(which I thought I could do) I like my chances. Even if people call behind with THEIR OESD or gutshots or overcards they are calling incorrectly yes?

[Shillx]

Yeah you have 11 outs if you can get it HU. There is no way you can give yourself ~42% equity when you 1st take a look at the flop. No way. You also have to understand that certian hands that really hurt you (flush draws and trips) will never fold on this board. If you do get it HU you got lucky that none of those hands were out there. Take these types of chances when the pot is 15 SB and not 6 SB.

I'm not saying that betting the flop is bad. I'm saying that betting the flop in this case is bad. Make these bets when the pot is big. Why play HU in a small pot when you could play 4-way with roughly the same equity. Take the overlay in a small pot. Take the extra outs in a big pot.

Brad

[milesdyson]

the problem lies in you being out of position against the lag and trying to clean up really really weak outs against such a large field.

your hand is not one to win very often without becoming a straight or a flush, so don't "protect" your draw. let the family come along and try to draw cheaply, improve to your hand, and let a large field pay you off.

let's say, for example that you simply check called this flop and the turn was the 6 again. this time utg checked and you expected the lag guy to raise (at least sometimes) with a hand worse than yours. then i could understand the bet. you are protecting an actual made hand in that case.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah you have 11 outs if you can get it HU. There is no way you can give yourself ~42% equity on the flop. No way.

I'm not saying that betting the flop is bad. I'm saying that betting the flop in this case is bad. Make these bets when the pot is big. Why play HU in a small pot when you could play 4-way with roughly the same equity. Take the overlay in a small pot. Take the extra outs in a big pot.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this makes sense to me. But what do you think about my turn raise? I don't see how raising is NOT better than calling in this situation for the reasons I stated above. So my options here are raise and fold yes?

And if I'm wrong or my logic is flawed, an explanation would be really appreciated, not a WTF...I'm trying to understand why I wouldn't try to drive out players behind me in this situation, or why I should give the hand up. I don't think you'll ever convince me of calling so if that's your answer just call me a stubborn !@#$ and be done with me /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Shillx]

UTG called 2 cold on the flop and then bet the turn. This looks a lot like trips to me. Bad players do it this way all the time. He could also have made a straight, but he isn't betting out with a bare six in this spot. Hell you can't even beat a bare six...

Brad

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem lies in you being out of position against the lag and trying to clean up really really weak outs against such a large field.

your hand is not one to win very often without becoming a straight or a flush, so don't "protect" your draw. let the family come along and try to draw cheaply, improve to your hand, and let a large field pay you off.

let's say, for example that you simply check called this flop and the turn was the 6 again. this time utg checked and you expected the lag guy to raise (at least sometimes) with a hand worse than yours. then i could understand the bet. you are protecting an actual made hand in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, thank you for the response. I understand why I don't make the bet on the flop, but UTG didn't check the turn, he bet into me. Now I DO have to protect what remaining outs I possibly have against him, while pushing out other draws or other potential 2-pairs yes?

[milesdyson]

the turn bettor actually has a good hand... the lag did not switch seats and lead the turn - that's a different guy.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG called 2 cold on the flop and then bet the turn. This looks a lot like trips to me. Bad players do it this way all the time. He could also have made a straight, but he isn't betting out with a bare six in this spot. Hell you can't even beat a bare six...

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope it's ok to quote Sklansky's books, if not I apologize and will delete it.

SSHE pg. 160 PROTECTING DRAWS AND BUYING OUTS

"In a large pot improving your chance to win is more valuable. Protect vulnerable outs in large pots.

Isn't this what I'm looking at here with 2 players behind me, even if I'm potentially drawing dead to UTG(something I can't be totally sure of at the time of the hand)?

I understand this isn't the LAG betting into me, that I am probably behind here...but at the time I thought my two pair was better than the LAG when the 8 hit. The lag was more likely to be raising on the flop with a 4-flush or a 5 than with a 7

[lautzutao]

I'm sorry to keep double posting, but I can't let this go...

Ok. UTG has me beat. I've said this before earlier in my post and others have reiterated it. But what hands beat me on this board? Since I have no information on UTG he could have ANYTHING. Lets take a look:

What I'm drawing dead to:

1. 66 for the full house-1 way
2. 77 for quads- 1 way
3. 88 for the full house- 2 ways

So I'm drawing dead to 4 possible hands, that doesn't look so bad to me so far.

What I'm drawing live against:

1. 34d for the 'idiot' straight plus a flush draw- 1 way with 5 outs to win

2. 34 for the straight- 15 ways with 8 outs to win

3. 98d for the high straight with a flush draw- 1 way with 3 cards to win.

4. 98 for the high straight- 12 ways with 4 outs to win.

I'm going to say that when weighted together I have an average of about 5.5 outs to hit winners.

Now factoring in that 4 out of the possible 33 hands ahead of me I'm drawing dead to(10% of the winning hands), I have approximately 5 outs to cinch the hand against UTG, which puts me at roughly 8.5 to 1.

IF NOBODY WAS BEHIND ME I COULD JUSTIFY CALLING. The pot is currently 7.2 to 1 for me to call, perfectly reasonable when implied odds are taking into account. Problem is, there are 2 players behind me possibly drawing as well. Since they possibly represent a threat to my draw(either to the flush or a gutshot) I have to attempt to push them out don't I? Otherwise I have to give up the hand.

If you can tell me with 90% certainty that you're drawing dead here and this pot isn't worth playing for please explain to me why. If anything I said above looks fishy please respond and tell me why. This hand is really eating at me, and not because of the result. I ended up folding the hand and a blank fell on the river so...

Am I just crazy to be looking at this hand in this manner?